A VC - Latest Comments in "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Citybot — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:47:35 -0000

It really depends on the type of music. If you take a techno, house, and most of other EDM tracks, 30 seconds won't even get you past the intro. So, you won't even know what the track sounds like. 20seconds probably works well for RockNRoll and some rock.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:10:26 -0000

The essence of music is the listen. What is a non-listened music but a bit of stored data?!

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 16:06:17 -0000

Oh, but by flogging the *listens* Fred, you are flogging the idea -- by extension -- that downloads should be free, too, which of course they are, and have been, if no longer on Napster, on Youtube now. You've only clarified this now, and you've created a climate in which you imply that people should give things away for free, and that will automagically make their fans buy from them.

This is a riotously religious theory that has not been tested by any serious journalistic investigation, and in fact is just a say-so from copyleftist fanatics like Doctorow, Andersen and Jarvis. You're merely contributing to that enabling climate that begs belief with this post.

YOU started your claims here by saying only partial listens were annoying and counterproductive and musicians "must" have full listens. Why? Can you *prove* that they *still make a living* with real numbers and not just your-say so? with revealing the actual life stories and balance sheets, even in aggregate?

You're claiming that all these fans getting full freebies instead of a 1/4 or a 3/4 freebie in fact buy the song. Show me.

I continue not to believe you, and your threats, hurts, anger, claims that I've put words in your mouth, claims that I've "gotten it wrong" simple are beside the point.

Cut the poetry, Fred. Show me the numbers.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

fredwilson — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 11:49:00 -0000

I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. I said they make a living by giving away listens for free

You keep mistaking listens for the music itself

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:28:26 -0000

No, it doesn't Fred, and don't take it personally, and don't be hurt because somebody says they don't believe your public blog where you are a public figure. This is a 'show me" moment.

You claim that all the artists on the record label where you invest make a living, and make a living by giving away songs -- entire CDs? -- for free.

So, show me. I don't believe that it possible. I think the following is true:

o they don't make a living
o they make a living, but only from concerts, t-shirts, licensing of jingles
o they make a living because they have VC start-up money, but you haven't been paid back yet

If it were possible to make money by giving away songs and living only off concerts or jingles, we would see that really happening all over for lots more bands. You don't engage with the fact that Andrew Keen, in his book which you probably don't like, says he researched bands, as a journalist, and found they barely made pizza money, going on the road, having all kinds of expenses, getting paid only a little, and not selling those songs, that they gave away for free.

So while I realize that this information i'm requesting could be proprietary private information and of course you're not required to display that, i'd have to say that your story needs a very thorough investigative journalistic treatment to see what is really meant by this 'living" and this 'profit" and this 'business model'. Because otherwise, you are breaking young people's hearts, Fred, pushing them into this racket. That will have to be on your conscience. So if you believe this is all true, demonstrate it, with numbers. With real stories of real people. or with an aggregate, if that violates privacy/business confidentiality.

Millions of musicians are giving away their tunes for free. Very few are making a living. The long tail really is a racket when it meets the power curve.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

David — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:37:02 -0000

Hope MySpace Music would fully integrate with iLike soon and stream full songs to music searchers as many times as they like.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

fredwilson — Mon, 02 Nov 2009 05:41:30 -0000

I'm sorry if you don't believe me. It begs the question of why you bother to stop by here at all

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

ShanaC — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 21:43:32 -0000

Glad to know at 23 that I'm normal.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 13:29:03 -0000

I don't believe you, I'm sorry. I believe this to be a major form of hype by new media companies these days.

I'd like to see this independently reviewed. This record label has artists *all of whom* make a living this way? What kind of living? The same living they'd make if they sold everything?

You're also fudging the "standard practice" claim. Many artists have sample songs. Maybe even a full song. But they don't expect to make a living, as Cory Doctorow insists that he can and they *should* by giving EVERYTHING away. Your claims of a "standard practice" to give some things away is then seized by others to validate their Creative Communism heckle to give *everything* away (so that Google can have fun ad space).

Some might have an "official Youtube channel" where they have given up trying to stop the copying of their artist's music videos, or they put purchase information on the videos. But you know full well, Fred, that YouTube is constantly in battles with various music companies. Somebody is paying somebody, even if the artists are "giving it away for free". Perhaps it is part of their 360 degree deal with the music company.

We don't know how many of those free videos that Youtube/Google is actually getting people to pay for, they don't tell us that. And we don't know how many of your record label's artists are really making a living. I'm much more likely to believe you when you tell me you have one company that you personally know and invest in -- but I still would like to see the numbers anyway. As for Google, I don't believe them, and I assume they are losing money.

There is not enough transparency on this claim of new media to be sustaining artists. And given that some of them still make money the old fashioned way, it's hard to check.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

fredwilson — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:21:56 -0000

Of course it works. I've got an investment in a record label that does this with all of their artists. Its actually standard practice for most successful artists these days

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:12:27 -0000

Fred, your model of making bank from social media projects that use freeness to get advertising either now, or as a plan for their future, is not sustainable -- even for you. People will not go on giving their all on social media for free. So it really is in the best interests of your investment to take a critical eye to this heavily ideological meme you have bought, and investigate it with real case studies. Does it really work, beyond several pumped up testimonials that are always given. Many 'agree' with this merely because they like free stuff. Who doesn't! But how are you going to get artists paid!!!!

You have this idea if someone gives away a song it will lead to a purchase or a gig. I think Andrew Keen, by actually studying the fates of some of these MySpace bands, found that they didn't even make enough for pizza with that idea. Have you studied these musicians and their lives and wages up and down?

Audio previews *are* in fact giving away part of a song to get you to buy. And...you don't like it because you "need" and "demand" the whole song. Why? *You were given part of a song for free*. Is it never enough? Ok, get an entire song. And...that's not enough either? It has to be a record then! See, this is a rising tide of entitlement expectations that go nowhere.

I've been meaning to buy that CD of that singer I saw perform live ever since I looked up her Myspace and listened to her *whole song* on Youtube/Myspace. Did I buy that CD yet? No. Will I ever? Oh, finally I may, months later. But had she just given me a *preview*, because I really like the song, I would have bought it on the spot. Instead, dozens of times I've merely gone to l listen to her entirely free song. And she's lost a sale. She's dying for your sins.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

fredwilson — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 12:05:46 -0000

I'm not arguing for giving away a whole album. I'm arguing for giving away a single full length play so you can get someone interested in purchasing it

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:09:59 -0000

Show me that it leads to transactions other than a lecture fee, and I'll believe you.

Cory Doctorow and Chris Anderson do not survive on books alone.

You're exaggerating and arguing hyperbole to duck the harsh truth that there is no percentage in selling stone soup. Stone soup is for socializing, not selling soup.

Sure, you can give some little thing away, but giving away an entire CD or entire book does not make you a living. It cannot possibly make you a living, and luring more and more young people and gullible people into this scam is morally wrong, Fred. All it does is create traffic and eyeballs for the various social media services you invest in to have click advertising. That's good for you; it's not good for them. They will not be making pennies in their tip jar.

This really dubious creator's business model, where they are browbeaten by Creative Commons into giving away things, and peer-pressured into giving away things on social media, does not lead to people making a living, or even a profit. It just doesn't. No one is every able to show this as an actual documented proposition for more than a tiny handful of ideological boosters like Lessig (gets a professor's salary) or Clay Shirky (get's a professor's salary) or Cory Doctorow (gets on the EFF lecture and conference circuit) or Chris Anderson (er, actually sells that expensive book in book stores, whatever his philosophy is).

It's the modern-day equivalent of the medicine show with the snakeoil.

Honestly, you need to search your soul on this, and not only your soul, you need to find very compelling use cases outside the very, very hackened and dubious case studies of Cory Doctorow and some lame band on MySpace to really make the case that social media pays more than the tycoons bankrolling the services as giant ad agencies.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 10:05:50 -0000

You got a scam going here that pollutes the social media stream with meaningless blather just to get people to come back to your marketing site.

You paste meaningless blather on bunches of high-traffic sites, you then put in an apology for being off-topic in advance to try to woo people, if that rare person calls you on it, you then act hurt and altruistic like you're "just trying to meet new people" as yet another act of manipulation. All of this is a marketing stunt, I see it all the time, and I see through it. Don't click, people.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

fredwilson — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 08:36:52 -0000

We've had this discussion before. I think keeping your stuff under wraps just means nobody will try it and thus nobody will buy it

You need to suck people in. Giving them a real tatste is the way to do that

You'll note that I am promoting the model that leads to a transaction instead of a theft

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

ladyislandguahan.ws — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:30:56 -0000

Prokofy, that comment then was not to offend you. I have been trying to meet new people and I guess your not one of them. I am here if you want to discuss. Your right, I do not know you. But this is how it starts isn't it? Or am I wrong again.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:11:09 -0000

You're just putting out here an elaborate new form of spam, and no, I'm not clicking.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

Prokofy — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 00:09:35 -0000

No, not really. It helps the music get paid for. When you say this, "it is the fault of the rights holders who won't let Google offer a full song sample" it's as if you actually believe the hype that Cory Doctorow and Chris Anderson spout, which is that you can make a living by giving everything away for free. Yes, you can do that IF you charge for your lecture fees...about giving everything away for free!

Kids do not mind samples. In fact, they never listen to songs all the way through and constantly jump through them.

Again, Fred, please show me the musicians that really make their living this way. The ones I know want to get paid real money and not pretend that giving away songs helps them live.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

ShanaC — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:24:00 -0000

I've seen pieces of it on YouTube. I have a really strong love/hate relationship with all things involving the human voice in music. it's a hugely powerful instuement -and it is often not put to what I consider good use. I tend to want music with the human vopice in that is using it at a soundscape, which is why I tend to like early music, say like the renaissance. I love Adams and his crowd for concerto like stuff. Say Harmonium.

But god help me if someone subjects to a story line that is too melismatic or is too syllabic. I just want to hear the music.

(Plus I can't help but feel bad when anyone mentions Dr. Atomic, Its on my to do list. A friend of mine interned in the constume department when the Met put it up. She also a great linguist student - if anyone wants a really awesome summer intern....)

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

ShanaC — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:17:58 -0000

There are a huge amount of hits here, I wouldn't be surprised if industry people who are interested are watching us kvetch about all sorts of oddball things. We're perfect guinea pigs demographically. They just need a gew more women for purchasing reasons, that's all...

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

ladyislandguahan.ws — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 23:01:08 -0000

Hey guys but I know my context may be out of the subject. I just didn't know when to share it. Something tells me to post in here. I found that there are so many people down grading each other for the hard work they do. But let's face it. All of us who are in this situation are in for the long haul or just to find out more information. Anyone who is business oriented also has family to mind and a volunteer assignment to accomplish. Social behavior among Americans or Locals have two things in common. They want to succeed and they want that recognition. That is a positive thing but it also eliminates the lower hand of marketeers. Wouldn't you think if we helped one person they would do better? Sponsor one and they could sponsor another? what ever is bringing us here must be good. But if we don't take the time to what others are seeing we could be missing the biggest act ever. US did we do what we said? Did we reach out and make someones day? Did you visit your parents, family, aunt, uncle etc.? Did we do our homework? I had to vent because we know that not everyone is here for the long road but for short term. If you this type of business man or woman still searching and can't make your mind. Why not ask yourself if your happy where you are at today. Life only comes once when the opportunity is around. It's up to us to take it while it's still avaialable.

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

fredwilson — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 10:38:43 -0000

Yup

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

joewong — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:10:31 -0000

Lala's player plays full length previews (just like their site) while iLike/Myspace plays shorten versions of a song. You can also listen to full length songs from Lala on sites like pitchfork.com and billboard.com.

Google music search:
http://www.google.com/searc...

http://www.google.com/landi...

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

andrewparker — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:19:52 -0000

But, for some songs, the intro cursing is the best part ;)

Re: "Audio Preview" Is A Bad User Experience

rikin — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:07:37 -0000

not sure if that's a good/bad thing.

I'm over 20 but I go because of it's powerful search. If I want to listen to a specific song there's no easier way (i know of) to do it.

Also many tools, like last.fm, are simply aggregating YouTube videos as part of the algorithms. Eventually, that just leads me right back to YouTube.