A VC - Latest Comments in It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Steven Livingstone — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:41:51 -0000

But surely "feeds" indicates you are going to go to the Facebook site? It can ONLY help them.

In a high level health project i worked on we were provided with several million records as a set of feeds - but the core data was on the main site. We got what we wanted - they got the hit. Everyone wins.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

stanley — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:28:54 -0000

Fred-

Why would someone like Facebook allow my compnay to make money off their feeds instead of them monetizing it themselves? Unless it's a killer progam and they want to partner, they'll just tell us to buzz off.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Sash — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:18:46 -0000

well put.
i think apps like twitter are successful precisely because they don't try and push anything at you that you don't want.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Sash — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:11:49 -0000

who clicks on google ads anyway? - certainly nobody i've ever met.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Steven Livingstone — Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:03:18 -0000

I completely agree. I saw your twitter of this post and when i read it i was finishing some work on something that tries to pull some of these together. The advertising is key - products, services - but with location you can also get clubs, organizations etc - i.e. things that are not "products" as such, but with context can be properly fitted it.

However Fred - there is a LOT of work to be done in the API's. I was pulling my hair out at some of them. Where i got to can be seen at http://weblivz.com

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

fredwilson — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:11:13 -0000

I agree with you on being able to interact with and control the ads

That's coming from a number of fronts and has to happen

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

podme — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:01:55 -0000

Typically, email spam is a perfect example of interruption marketing in that the user has no control of what they receive in their "marketing inbox".

Also, as seen with Beacon, the most successful types of marketing will likely be the types that a user has control over. And these days, content is king. It's no longer enough to just throw ads out in front of the user - after years of being interrupted, we start tuning out. If marketers intend on serving ads for those same clients/companies, they better have some relevant content appended to them.

I really don't mind ads in my feeds, as long as I have control. I can hide the ads, I can change their positioning, and I can remove/add categories. If I am given some control, I may even interact with them.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Ethan Bauley — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:25:05 -0000

I agree with you to the degree that the intent of paid placement is getting distribution on behalf of a business, not directly helping people. Otherwise, the entity wouldn't have to pay for the placement, right?

We're far from a "perfect market" for needs and solutions...but I think this investment thesis is an incredibly smart step in the right direction!

(...if you're an idealistic enough to think that commercial information can provide useful serendipity ;-)

(And btw this comes from a guy whose dad, a television producer/director, REFUSED to let me and my brother listen to commercials growing up; they were always on mute. I still mute all commercials to this day...it lets me catch up on my FEEDS ;-)

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Ethan Bauley — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 02:55:03 -0000

Creative and apropos paid placements are certainly going to be an important way for marketers to engage productively in social mediums...the onus will be on the buyer to know the customer and craft a message or interaction that will "enhance serendipity" (to borrow a phrase from John Hagel ;-)

Advertising people like to think that their job is hard and that they're talented for making it "work", but they ain't seen nuthin' yet...

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Bertil — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:49:44 -0000

I've been asking myself the same question (actually, I'm writing a PhD dissertation on that) and I believe that you are wrong to talk about ‘ads’, i.e. to think through a stream analogy to consider that the only option is an interruption: having an outsider come an mention something outside of you activity (stream-browsing) is not interfering with the (TV, radio) program, something outside of your control; it stalls your active browsing. For the same reason, search-engine ads had to be outside the usual eye-tracking pattern.

The analogy with search-engine does not stop here: relevancy (be it contexual, social, etc.) is still a problem for non-sponsored news, and it is too early to include ads without that magic formula. It would be wrong to think that finding additional news to insert could help: what would be great feed addition is actions.

The best that I've heard so far (and perfectly feasible type of active interaction) is to recognise music-related status: many IM clients allow updates from iTunes, and some Facebook or Twitter users describe they mood trough musical references. Identifying those tunes, and offering a ‘Listen to this on iTunes’ link, one can easily track a recommendation-to-buying behaviour. Notice that we are not adding a feed item, but an action to an existing, legitimate item.

The same could apply easily to books — and the split of the reference money between the initial reader, the tech-solution and the feed-manager is to be discussed, but Amazon already has a great ref program. ‘Book a table’ or ‘Tell the waiter I'm coming’ could improve messages about cafés or restaurants; ‘Find an expert on LinkedIn/YellowPages’ could complement message about a question, a job opportunity or a more general problem like our hosts ‘Swimming my way out of the flat; water pipe just broke in my room.’

All those would demand an increased semantic understanding of the messages, something that can be done at any step of the micro-bloging process: it can be activated by the emitter, or the receivers' client. Do note that the recommendation are not the same, or trivial to sort out: if you are listening to a tune, you probably don't need to buy it again — unless it is on the radio; if you are not the one with the leaky pipe, you don't care for a plumber — but you might want to offer you help by using your own social-network management tool to suggest or find the best professional available to a friend busy mopping.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Scott Rafer — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:22:38 -0000

All true, but that's why Google is able to build monopoly market share where Y! wasn't. Search and search advertising are not only both inherently algorithmic, but they are also powered by algorithms so parallel in nature as to be effectively identical. I believe Feed and Feed Advertising placement algorithms to be more analogous to search than display when seen from this perspective.

Relatedly,
(1) Lookery is seeing more and more display ads selected by Keyword Retargeting,
(2) Analytics that use keyword behavior to measure the effectiveness of brand/display advertising are emergent ("Porkbellies, Wenda, porkbellies.").

The increasing marginal returns of search advertising are now doing more than taking market share from display advertising -- they are en route to becoming display advertising's operating principle.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

fredwilson — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:13:05 -0000

Agreed. But the little guys (or littler) may be where the innovation happens. That's how it was in display ad networks. Yahoo did it themselves. The other guys banded together (or were banded together by third party networks) and things like ad.com, right media, tacoda, and quigo happened

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

A2K — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:49:54 -0000

@Rick

I think you've hit the nail right on the head. Personal Relevance is the key--be it in the form of a search, a dining review or new music recommendation. The simple fact is that we, as consumers, are most receptive to a product/services offering when it corresponds to an immediate need. The Yellow Pages, even despite of all it's 21st century short comings, has proven this time and time again. And, in some respects, continues to do so on a geo based level. When it comes to the web, we all know how well Google has done with search. (even despite all of their relevancy issues :) )

From a Marketers perspective, there is no doubt in my mind that the same relevance factor holds true. (Not once during any part of my Creative Communications life have i come across a brand who did NOT have a specific target they were trying to reach.) It's no coincidence that the Super Bowl consistently rakes in truck loads of ad revenue year after year. Nor is it a coincidence that the majority of those dollars come from the same players.

In the plumbers scenario and a feed on outside.in, i disagree* with Fred's logic. And in some respects, the same holds true for yours. Personally, i would find zero value seeing a plumbers listing appear sandwiched between my news "facebook feed" style (same way as i see no value with facebooks sponsors). And At the same time, i wouldn't want to jump on over to Joe Plumbers , personally biased Wordpress website either. From my perspective i personally would rather tap into my local social circles and either ask for a recommendation or search for past consumer experiences from those circles or from other users whom i share similar expectations, socioeconomic status or whatever i felt important. To me, this type of information is much more valuable than the others. And for Joe Plumber, this gives him an opportunity to create brand evangelists.

No matter how you look at it, it's a win-win scenario for all!

Seeing feedback like yours Rick not only helps to validate my current project but also serve as further inspiration in filling this void. If you're curious, you can find more info on it at http://blog.alexklaff.com or http://www.urbanupdates.tum...

(* as an aside, the plumber example is a tough one. Certainly feed type promotions could very well work with other products/services. Same holds true for checking out their page and viewing past work).

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Scott Rafer — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:07:11 -0000

The Facebook Feed is FB's search results page. FB'll open it up as much as Google has their SERPs, ie not transparently. There will be third-party content (solely via Facebook Connect), third-party ads as there are already, but no third-party targeting. FB will move into the third-party feed operations and ad network biz, and everyone else will maneuver to use the best pieces and parts (including Lookery I hope) to keep up as best they can.

From a Social Feed perspective (which may not the the correct perspective for these companies), Twitter, FF, O.in, et al, are not the Gorilla -- FB is.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

fredwilson — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:51:09 -0000

Yes, exactly

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Steve Kane — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:46:01 -0000

actually yes, google definitely feeds us noise - in every one of their products that is supposedly based on contextual targeting

or, put another way, the only time google does *not* feed us noise is in the ad insertions directly based on a search query (for obvious reasons, no?)

but, i have no objection to noise - thru my many years selling advertising and targeting and profiling and media and such, i constantly reminded buyers that targeting often becomes the crutch of the lazy non-creative marketer -- a useful tool of course but a severely limiting one, by definition ruling out educating prospects about new things and things they maybe didn't know interested them. which, IMHO, is maybe the most powerful form of marketing (because it involves the thrill of novelty and true discovery)

so while ads in feeds is a perfectly OK (and inevitable) idea such advertising needs to have permissions and opt-ins and -outs just like any other medium -- and also just like any other medium, ads in feeds will be mostly noise and only occasionally signal and even more rarely, transactional

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

fredwilson — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:42:08 -0000

This is really a useful conversation for me and I am glad we can have it out
in the open for everyone to see and join in Scott

So you don't see facebook, twitter, friendfeed, outside.in, etc opening up
their feed services to third parties like lookery who can fill them
occasionally with relevent marketing messages?

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Scott Rafer — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:13:55 -0000

We have no feed inventory ourselves. That will be Gnip as EricM notes, as well as Friendfeed, Facebook themselves as they offer third-party feeds, and possibly HP at plum.com. What Lookery has is the privacy-friendly ability to target the inventory once it exists.

We don't think that anyone but the owners of the authentication mechanisms will be able to operate social advertising in the "leveraging of social graphs" sense -- and then only by combining inventory very flexibly across all parts of their own real estate. "Integrated brand campaigns" as successfully and scalably sold by Imeem and Dogster are the best example.

Social ads in feeds will not stand alone. Standalone ads in feeds will need to be targeted in other ways.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

stephanelee — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:09:42 -0000

Endorsements are not deceptive by nature, Facebook may not do it right yet, but they will.

Web has gone social, advertisement schemes need to leverage that, not come back to that old "spyware/engine/technological" stuff.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

Dedektif — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:59:55 -0000

thank you

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

DavidG — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:53:30 -0000

You should use the twitteriffic app on iPhone for a bit and then ask yourself if this is still a good idea. Very invasive. A feed and a list of search engine results are not all that dissimilar in their content - can you imagine what a mess goog would be if adwords were inline? I know your response to this critique is "personalization" but honestly, you're dreaming there - the (micro) news I subscribe to certainly tells you much less about me than my purchases do and yet, more than a decade later, amzn still can't make recommendations accurate enough that I'd want them in a feed. As others have pointed out, the plumber ad is going to be spam 999/1000 and it's in your face spam. Ads around feeds however will work (and google will probably own that market) but ads in feeds sounds unlikely to cross the chasm.

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

fredwilson — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:30:40 -0000

scott,

can you get ads into feeds?

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

gregorylent — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:20:31 -0000

Synaptic marketing: Digital brains driving positive interactions, http://www.mycustomer.com/c...

more like what mr. wilson is looking for

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

gregorylent — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:14:09 -0000

google definitely feeds all of us noise .... it the form of the spam blogs its advertising method does nothing but encourage ...

Re: It's Time To Open Up The Feeds To Marketers

gregorylent — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:10:19 -0000

nicely stated ...