A VC - Latest Comments in Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Steve Kane — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 15:35:28 -0000

my history is a bit rusty here but -- isnt the whole superdelegate structure supposed to prevent backroom deals and politics a susual? doesn't it (like the proportional distribution of delegates versus the old winner-takes-all method still used by the republicans) trace back to the 1984 race when jesse jackson and his followers complained that jackson was getting all sorts of popular votes and support but wasn't getting any delegates or sway at the convention?

any case, we should all resist the urge to let the ideal become the enemy of the good. our system is the worst... except for all the others. there is no such thing as perfect democracy or absolute democracy. there has to be a system of organization and rules, especially to deal with messy and inevitable situations like near-ties

one last thing -- to all those vitriolic bush-bashers who still scream that the 2000 election was "stolen": hopefully the current rules tangle over vote counts and delegates and superdelegates in the Democrat party primaries and caucuses once and for all demonstrates that nobody :"stole": anything. bush and gore camps played as hard as they could by the rules, desperate to win. one can and maybe should argue that the supreme court overstepped by taking the case at all (should have been a local/state florida matter only) and maybe gore should have kept fighting to wrench it back into florida, but he didn't, and the contest was over. senators clinton and obama will undoubtedly play to win, and will try to leverage the rules to thyeir own advantage. gee, how shocking. but lets please -- PLEASE -- not start vilifying our loyal opponents. can't we stop the acid throwing and bashing and personal attacks and horrible deeply divisive nasty accusations? please...?

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Andy Swan — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 09:37:16 -0000

Well I suppose one thing we can agree on is the need for a 100% accurate vote-counting system, so that the margin of error does not exist. It makes me sick that American Idol has much more accurate systems than American Presidency.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

fredwilson — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:56:02 -0000

They did a recount. It didn't solve anything. The recount was still in the margin of error

Fred

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

fredwilson — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:49:03 -0000

I'd vote for your pick!

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

fredwilson — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 08:49:02 -0000

Charlie

I am slowly being swept away by obama like the rest of us progressives and it is this reason you cite below

He owes nobody and thus he owes us

Fred

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Lass — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:50:30 -0000

Obama is no better. He has been taking money from Exelon, he fixed a bill so that Nuclear Companies are not mandated to notify if they leak nuclear waste. He is not who he pretends to be. He also lies on his Senate page of what actually is the truth and states he did mandate it. Truth is truth, he did not and he too is a liar.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Lass — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:44:33 -0000

I don't think we have a democracy. We have power brokers that decide. It is not we the people, it is media not giving us all the information and doing a "branding" on a candidate. They too are a power broker and then there is the party delegates. They protect us from our vote. then we have them disinfranching Florida and Michigan votes. Then, there is the paid superdelegates. It is unreal and by any measure not democracy!

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

stone — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 07:00:03 -0000

As I said her before, lots of articulate people can read a teleprompter. Now we know that Senator Obama has been doing just that in key areas of his stump speech. The one thing he had for all you ultraliberals was his spoken word --- no serious experienced running a company, a city or a state, just his magical words. Now we find out that a key section has been um, er, borrowed? Have you lost faith yet again that he's JUST a politician trying to win? Let's get real and stop rationalizing because you desparately want a far left liberal in the White House. This guy has a thin resume AND is not using his own original thought.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Andy Swan — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 01:23:27 -0000

Agreed. Recount is VERY different than a have "them vote over again" 2nd campaign.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

jackson — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:53:24 -0000

Let's make it easier on everybody - I'll pick the candidate, hell, I'll choose the Prez even. Really, I don't mind.....

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

charlie crystle — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 23:02:53 -0000

Fred,

I can attest to the corruption of the Democratic Party system. When I ran for US Senate in PA, I was offered a superdelegate spot as part of a "package" to convince me to leave the primary. I turned it down, along with other suggested perks, and instead asked for a few issues-oriented things that never were done, not to mention the harassment during the campaign.

It's a patronage system, at least here in PA. It's not democratic by any means. Progressives with new ideas and energy are pushed aside during the contests in favor of weaker characters with political favors to pay or to earn. The political animal is different from you and I; the politician first responds to power, money, or shame, then to reason, justice, and public obligation.

Obama appears to be different. It infuriates party insiders like Rendell & Clinton, to see someone so talented and committed to skip line without owing the power brokers anything along the way. At least that's how it appears. Let's hope when he wins (he will win) that he has surrounded himself with a team who wants to accomplish things for the public good. And let's hope the highly undemocratic system of superdelegates allows that without exacting a price.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

stone — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 21:45:01 -0000

Just caught the "senator for life" comment. I assume you're referring to John McCain. The same John McCain that fought courageously for this country, got shot down, and was tortured before coming home. He then dedicated his life to public service --- a noble calling and we're a better country because of his service. It's an amazingly "borderline" comment and exposes your intellect.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

fredwilson — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:59:01 -0000

Andy

I think we need to recognize that when its really close, like florida in 2000, and the difference is within the margin of error, a recount is the only way to ensure that every vote is counted

Fred

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

stone — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:44:12 -0000

That's a really interesting approach to hiring. Well, I have a different approach. After selling my company last year I decided to try something new --- start another company but hire someone as CEO to run it. I've decided to be Chairman and board member. I spent the last three months talking to people, sifting through resumes, looking on LinkedIn, and lots of interviewing with the goal of finding the right CEO. The main criteria: experience and execution. Yep, call me crazy, but I do require more than a pulse and good articulation to get this role. I'm also looking for a CTO. The requirement is pretty much the same --- work ethic, technology vision, ability to build quality products "on time" and ability to build a great team. I also needed someone that wasn't a BIG company person, which means I need someone that will roll-up their sleeves and make stuff happen.

Yep --- I'm an experience kind of person. I'm weird in that way. As for the most important job in the world? Yep --- weird stuff (again) but I do require that the person I vote for has to be a very experienced person. They have to have a proven track record of amazing excellence over a long period of time. I guess I have high standards.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Andy Swan — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:16:40 -0000

I don't know enough about delegates or super delegates to comment on that....but the notion that in 2000 Florida should have been "called a tie" strikes me as extremely UNdemocratic. "Every vote counts....unless it's close and every vote would actually count..... then we'll just do-over".

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

tim — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:46:43 -0000

Obama is over 35 and a natural born citizen of the US. That is the only qualifications for being president. If you want to pick other arbitrary qualifications go right ahead. But I contend that neither Hillary or McCain have any additional qualifications than Obama has for being president. Really what does being a Senator for Life and a husband of a former president really have to contribute to the presidency?

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Luke Archer — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 13:14:45 -0000

I am appalled with our "supposed" democratic system of government. This was the first year that I had heard really any news or pot lights on the super delegates and how money and promises buys their votes. Whatever happened to “A Government FOR and BY the PEOPLE"??? I was disgusted when Al Gore won the popular vote, but lost with the delegates...and I am even more disgusted now. How about a president that vows to let the people decide who governs them...oh yeah, then he/she would have to bite the hand that elected them...what a nightmare.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

Aydin Ghajar — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:44:56 -0000

That *would* be a fair point if we weren't locked into a two-party system where anyone outside of the parties has almost no chance of getting elected. This monopoly on our real options in November makes the nomination process perhaps the most important part of the election. Saying that it's "not really a democratic process" undermines the validity of the entire system.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

James — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 10:54:34 -0000

I agree with the above gentleman's post.

Though, i do fail to see how your example, Fred, is an argument against the backdoor brokering that you mention? Wouldn't that be an argument for backdoor brokering? Begining with Koch the city began a long slow recovery to it's former glory and look at us now. We live in the best city in the world - in my humble opinion (I think I can say that with a certain level of qualification having traveled to 24 counties and countless foreign cities). Koch, as you will recall, was not the party favorite and the first candidate to break with the old democratic political machine and had that of not happened, even if Cuomo turned out to be wonderful - and he very well may have, we may have never ended up with Bloomberg and we would be stuck with the mediocrity that haunted this city in decades past.

Secondly, I don't see how one can reasonably compare NYC politics to any other political machine let alone the national political system. NYC politics is unique only to NYC and is a totally different animal even in different parts of the state, especially the relic of the of the 1970 political system.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

TimWalker — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 08:48:12 -0000

Fred, please pardon my ignorance if you've covered this before, but why do you use lower-case "democrat" to describe the party? No big agenda on this end, but if I were copy-editing that in text I'd change it to "Democratic."

Usage geeks wants to know!

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

scottfromshanghai — Mon, 18 Feb 2008 04:00:59 -0000

Its a sad fact but isn't it possible to make the argument that the person best able to do back room deals and convince the superdelegates is the best candidate and the best person to be president becuase thats what its all about? Need to change more than the democratic selection rules!

Scott (albeit posting from a country which doesn't worry too much about elections)

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

stone — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 20:00:47 -0000

I'm no fan of GWB but have to say that he somehow managed to buy a baseball team and run one of the largest states for several years. I don't like him one bit but, on paper, he looks way more impressive than Obama. Look - I'm trying to raise questions because I think it's fascinating that no one can answer the question: what has Obama done to deserve being president?

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

stone — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 19:57:42 -0000

Fred,

I'm no presidential scholar but i do know a little about Abe Lincoln and have to say that I see very little camparison between him and Obama. Here's why: Abe Lincoln was a very distinguished lawyer and political thinker in his state many years before he was president AND he had the courage to take on slavery --- one of the most divisive issues in american history. He debated his way into office courageously espousing an unpopular position, especially with factions within his own party. He championed one of the great issues in the history of the world. Obama? I rest my case --- sorry.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

terrycojones — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:59:55 -0000

McCain is certainly more experienced, that's beyond question, I think. Does that make him more qualified? I don't think so, but that's perhaps just a matter of definition.

The main point, and this is what Fred is pointing out and what you don't seem to agree with, is that if Obama loses it will NOT be because the party doesn't think he's qualified. Who's the party anyway? Since when did the mass of normal folks who get out and vote, and clearly express their preference cease to be the party. If Obama loses it will be due to backroom dealing, phone calls, favors called in, promises made, perhaps threats. And it's very clear which side has the deepest and oldest and strongest ties into the superdelegates. We can only hope the superdelegates somehow collectively see that going against the will of their constituents would cause (as someone else put it) civil war within the democratic party. I agree that the superdelegates should not exist. Their existence is a transparent attempt to cling to power while in theory giving normal people the power of the vote.

Re: Super Delegates Have No Place In A Democracy

terrycojones — Sun, 17 Feb 2008 18:50:12 -0000

Recall? You don't need to look back at all - just look at GWB. One of the criticisms of Bush in the run up to 2000 was that he was very inexperienced in gov't (e.g., foreign policy) and a (some would say "criminal") failure in the private sector. As for his stint as governor, you might (in case you haven't already) read one of the late Molly Ivins' books, either Shrub or Bushwacked, to get some idea of how he distinguished himself in Texas.

Whichever of McCain, Clinton or Obama - presuming we're down to just those three - is elected, will certainly be well respected.