A VC - Latest Comments in The Great Immigration Panic

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

fredwilson — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 08:26:49 -0000

nobody is god like. not obama. and certainly not me.

the hookers are not dangerous in the least. i know them, i am nice to them. they are working, just a different kind of work than the people who hang out on this blog do

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

pamslim — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 01:20:25 -0000

How wonderful to see what I have been feeling put so simply and eloquently.

I totally agree.

And living in Arizona and being married to a Navajo man, I almost choke on my cereal every morning with all the stories of how the "illegals" are ruining our lives. As a favorite tee-shirt of my in laws says "Who is the Illegal Immigrant?" Somehow, the process of stealing land and genocide doesn't really fit with my definition of "legal."

I could go on, but won't. Bottom line: we are all human, and all connected. The sooner we realize that and treat each other with love, the better off we will be.

Thanks for sharing your opinions. I am impressed.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:14:43 -0000

Fred do you at all feel weird that no matter what you say, you have these old losers that hang all over your words like you are the almost as smart and God-like as Obama?

"I like it when we get diversity in our neighborhood. The hookers who work our street corner at night is a good mix with the expensive restaurants. It keeps it all real."

Your really have to be sarcastic, right? That could be one of the dumbest things i have ever heard. "I like my kids jessica, emily and josh subjected to rapists, drug dealers, gang members, pimps, pediophiles, wife beaters, junkies, degenerates, liars, cheaters; i mean God forbid anything happens to them, but if it does, oh well its life and there is no reason not to embrace it" IT KEEPS IT REAL.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

jackson — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:39:46 -0000

I don't see Tony's issues as immigration problems, they are law enforcement and education problems. What Tony needed, before he moved, was better local government and better allocation of tax dollars to improve law enforcement and education.

You can't stem the tide. Alaric will always sack Rome before he's convinced to go home.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

fredwilson — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:49:06 -0000

I can't wait until the rest of the world is as developed as the US.

It will be a better world

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

jackson — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:45:19 -0000

I appreciate Tony's position. Indeed I witnessed it. He bought property, and it turned to crap at the hand of criminals and the school where he was going to send his daughter went down the crapper as well, he was forced to sell his home and move a lot further away from his employment base.

BUT.....

Those things should have been, and could have been addressed by law enforcement and the Board of Ed.

The problem Tony faces isn't really an immigrant problem, it's a social problem. We spend tax money improperly.

We have a border with a country that is economically challenged, and it, in turn, is a corridor through which even more economically challenged people pour into our country. That will not change until those countries are on par with us socially and economically.

You'll never stop the influx without addressing the reason why it happens. In the meantime I suggest voting for people who want to increase funding for education and law enforcement instead of those who wish to drop bombs on distant populations.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

John McGrath — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:12:00 -0000

A great editorial, revealing a shameful truth. We need need immigration laws, but they should be humane and pragmatic, not cover for witch hunts. We're making a mockery of the Statue of Liberty; Breckinridge Long would be proud.

Fred, this thread highlights something you've talked a lot about: the comments on this editorial are spread all over, all the more so because we (full disclosure: I'm a developer at the Times, though these opinions are my own) are only slowly increasing the number of stories that can be commented on. Even when comments are more widespread, people will continue to talk about the news all over the place. It would be nice to have better tools for aggregating discussions that are on the same topic, but different sites.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

fredwilson — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:13:08 -0000

i think you read more into my comment than was there. i was not making any judgment about where you lived, i was just saying that not everyone feels that way. i have graffiti on my house, i have garbage in my street, i have hookers on my street corner. it's ok with me.

but it's the latter point that i really disagree with you on. some of the best people i know have come to the US illegally. it is not a measure of their character. it's a measure of their determination to get a better life for themselves and their family.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

Tony_Alva — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:02:06 -0000

It's funny how you immediately assume my neighborhood wasn't diverse before illegal immigrants moved into the hostels and all the ill effects that came with began to permeate. Ask your brothers what it was like, they visited a few times. It simply exposes the fallacy and delusion of your perspective on this issue. I’ll chalk it up to living in NYC most of your adult life. I was actively involved in my local/neighborhood gov't and can assure you Anglos were the minority in our neighborhood from day one, and harmony prevailed for years. As much as you want to force this issue into that corner, this has absolutely nothing to do with diversity. If you were watching your investment sink as fast as many of us were, you’d assuredly be singing a tune (remember, for most of us, our home is our largest investment). If you didn’t have the means to send your kids to private school and the one they’d be attending was as substandard as the one my kid was going to have to go to, you’d have a sign in the yard and moving van on its way post haste. Unlike many others, I stuck around a tried to make it work. Participated as much as any citizen can (neighborhood watch, Police citizen associate, Atlanta Clean & Beautiful, HOA, etc…), but it was futile. We LOVED our house and did NOT want to move. We built it, worked hard on it and everything about it had our mark on it.

“The hookers who work our street corner at night is a good mix with the expensive restaurants. It keeps it all real.”

You have the ability that most of don’t have to pick up and move just about anywhere your heart desires. This is not the case for the rest of us. If all that prostitution were to proliferate to the point where all those fancy restaurants were to close and the violence and crime were to affect, not only your property values, but also your personal safety and your quality of life you’d be gone in a NYC VC minute, don’t even trip and tell me different.

How they get here DOES matter since it‘s the foundation of future attitudes and behavior. As I’ve said, I firmly believe that the process of LEGAL immigration should be efficient enough to meet the current demands, but my family and many others have seen and experienced what happens when there is no control. You haven’t and would rather pretend there’s a xenophobic (spelled correctly) subtext to it all.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

davemc500hats — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:23:35 -0000

preach on, preacher...

diversity++

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

davemc500hats — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:22:51 -0000

ok, tell you what: i'll stop correcting your spelling, and you take care of the "punishing millions of people" part.

really quite simple, my ass.

ps - if you EVER drive faster than 55mph, you are the world's biggest hypocrite. if not, then more power to you, and stay the fuck out of the left-hand lane (kidding, i keed ;).

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

davemc500hats — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:19:48 -0000

so at least we agree on the high-skill segment.

re: "we have lots of unemployed folk..", um not really. probably <5% overall, and tho it's higher among lower economic ladder folks, those folks lives are still arguably positively-impacted by [most] immigration economics overall.

but anyway, i'm happy we can find some middle ground here somewhere. at least that's a start.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

New WestLiving — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 23:30:12 -0000

Xenophobia eh?

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

fredwilson — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 21:11:05 -0000

Me too

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

GL — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:41:25 -0000

"Its not how they got here that matters. Its what they do once they are here that matters".

Bingo. I agree 100%.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

S.t — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:39:22 -0000

The End Of England?
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Monday, June 02, 2008 4:20 PM PT

http://ibdeditorials.com/IB...

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

Nate — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:31:21 -0000

While watching "Download: The true story of the internet (which Fred was briefly in)" a while back I was struck by the fact that a good 50% of the founders and VCs were immigrants or the children of immigrants. No immigrants = no Grove, Khosla, Page, Brin, Yang, and a bunch of other people.

Sure, there's a difference between educated and uneducated immigrants, but we make it so hard to live and work here that educated, law abiding would-be immigrants stay home while the uneducated with nothing to lose make it in illegally. Then they're forced into a labor black market.

Make it easy and legal to live and work here (and pay taxes). Make it easy to come and go. Many immigrants don't want to be Americans, they just want to work here, and go home in the off season. Why not let them?

What if the shoe was on the other foot? What if say, Canada had all the good jobs? Wouldn't you want to be able to work in Canada while remaining a US citizen?

It won't matter soon anyway. Thanks to the internet jobs, data, and capital will flow no matter what stupid governments say about their borders.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

fredwilson — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:23:04 -0000

I know people who broken the law getting here and I have actively aided their efforts to stay here legally

I don't agree with your point of view

Its not how they got here that matters. Its what they do once they are here that matters

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

fredwilson — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:00:05 -0000

I like it when we get diversity in our neighborhood.

The hookers who work our street corner at night is a good mix with the expensive restaurants. It keeps it all real.

I would never want to live in an all white gated community

Fred

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

Tony Alva — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:23:40 -0000

"…have you lived where a large influx of immigrants has essentially overwhelmed the area?"

I have and the impact forced us to leave a neighborhood we loved. The gang activity, graffiti, overcrowded suburban worker hostels, ESL impact on the schools, etc... Nope, nobody wants to talk about these things that come along with the failed current policies, they rather call you names.

It's strange how fast the pull back has been too. Here in Atlanta, the new housing market has gone stagnant and the wake that is being left by the illegal immigrant population leaving is visible for all to see.

I am as adamant about enforcing our rule of law with employers as much as I am with the border crossers. I'm astounded at the fact that that plant in the upper Midwest which was raided last week has not resulted in several arrests of company principles. It's just a tremendous injustice...

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

Tony Alva — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:44:45 -0000

If millions break the law they should not be rewarded. If millions are hiring them, they need to be punished. Really quite simple. See andyswans comment above re: the asinine and irrelevant premise of slavery and homesteading to the issue at hand.

Appreciate your spelling correction. No, really...

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

John Pasmore — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:54:10 -0000

CNN should be embarrased as much as The Times (and this blog) should be applauded. Good to see the on-going SEO, social media, VC return on capital conversation paused to reflect on what it is we're working for...to create a community, the one that happens when you step out the front door...separate and distinct from the one which requires electricity...

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

Andy Freeman — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:47:36 -0000

> mention you probably wouldn't get laundry service, nanny care, restaurant dishes etc etc.

Sure you would - you'd just pay more. The fact that "cheap nannies for VCs" doesn't sound as good doesn't change the fact that that's what you're asking for.

We have lots of unemployed folk. Why should we keep them unemployed by importing low-skilled people.

I think that the US should make it easier to get more high-skilled immigrants, but that's a different issue than hard-laborers and household help.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

GL — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:08:11 -0000

There are many is society that need to come down from the mountain ranges of Oklahoma and Nebraska and really see life from seal level. They are worried about illegal immigrants taking over this country? Please. For the most part it's these people that allow us to enjoy strawberries for $4 a basket instead of $20 basket.
If there is a group you want to point a finger at for all the frustrations look no further than the current Administration. We need to wake up as a country and see that rules made on the playground are now shared by many outside the US - We've got bigger issues such as; The world currency is soon becoming the Euro, Latin American nations have their own regional bank getting rid of the World Bank and IMF, China is the next world super power....... times are changing and people outside the USA are waking up. We have bigger issues.

This all goes back to Plato's allegory of the cave.

Re: The Great Immigration Panic

davemc500hats — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:02:27 -0000

please stop twisting my words -- i didn't say "w/o illegals there will be no one...".

"we have laws, why not enforce them"... come on. the laws suck, and if enforced would result in the incarceration / deportation of ~10 million people, not to mention you probably wouldn't get laundry service, nanny care, restaurant dishes etc etc.

i never made the "equivocation" that we are a country of immigrants. i made the statement that to ascribe deviant behavior to wide-spread breaking of unenforceable laws is both dysfunctional as well as stupid.

and per your notion of breaking the speed limit, what is more dangerous?
1) having a dumb law that >50% of the community breaks regularly, which encourages devaluation of other intelligent laws / disrespect for our police force?
2) the incremental increase in accidents due to driving 5-10 mph faster?

i would propose to you that the MUCH GREATER DANGER to our society is a devaluation of reasonable & appropriate laws (and lawmakers / law enforcers) due to some misplaced sense of enforcement (and budgetary insanity) around enforcing stupid laws.

you're right, the law is worth protecting... but only when the law is respectful of its citizens as well.

when the law is stupid, unenforceable, or treats massive # of people as criminals, then it is the LAW itself which is likely wrong, and incites unrest / uprising (see Boston Tea Party, Women's Suffrage, Abolishment of Slavery, etc)