A VC - Latest Comments in The Lessons of Rev Wright

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

strtme — Thu, 08 May 2008 20:01:05 -0000

You can' t be serious. HC? Willing to work across the aisles?

BTW, Obama's been in the Senate longer... I'm not sure which race your monitoring...

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

strtme — Tue, 06 May 2008 21:38:37 -0000

Mike C,

Well said, young man. Nothing further needs to be added..

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

FeedUs — Mon, 05 May 2008 02:43:45 -0000

That was a great comment. Puts some things in context. Thanks.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

woodstockpatch — Sat, 03 May 2008 18:56:06 -0000

Maybe he called him a "politician" but it was NOT an effort to "rub salt in the wounds..." I think if anyone takes the time to listen to the entire National Press Club speech, question and answer period, both parts of the Bill Moyer's interview AND Bill's post interview "essay" everyone will be surprised by the passions, motivations, beliefs and goals of the Rev. It is my firm belief that those two men will have a LONG albeit complicated friendship for many years and will continue to find much common ground in changing our perceptions of race, activism, our government, each other and ultimately ourselves. Fred, I encourage you to revisit this post. Unfortunately, you sound much like the press and those you sometimes vilify. They are still very much on the same page. I am sure of it. "Villains always blink their eyes" in the immortal words of L. Reed, there is definitely NO blinking going on anywhere here, Fred. The Reverend and Senator Obama are both staring, open-eyed, focused, fixed on the cameras and those of us watching from the wings and those of us in the audience. Solid.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

Andy Freeman — Fri, 02 May 2008 14:40:11 -0000

Fair enough.

One question though - are there any reasons one can prefer another candidate to Obama without being called a racist?

IMHO, this question is related to a "which service to use" issue that a lot of folks misunderstand. As Dave Winer points out, many folks prefer services that don't have lock-in. For example, the easier it is to get my data out, the more likely I am to put my data in.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

BenParis — Fri, 02 May 2008 13:05:35 -0000

I kind like Dick Costolo and Stone comments, both for different reasons. My humble opinion about wright is: no! it wasn't Obama's fault if his beloved and respected reverend had borderline comments in one case, and blunt racist ones in another. My only concern is not about the fact Obama's reputation as a candidate might have been tarnished by Wright's comments, but more about why is it surfacing now? I mean, the first issue here in my opinion is that Obama had met the reverend more than 15 tears ago, and attended his preaches quite regularly, so he had a lot of time to figure out if he had to distance himself from Wright: as a man, not as a ploitician!

I am not saying here that you cannot be friend with someone who has different opinions on many subjects, but when that friend of yours, close friend, has radically different views from yours on pretty much everything (racial issues, antisemitism, patriotism, terrorism, freedom...), then what are you talking about when you are together? weather? kids?

So I am just saying that when your very good friend is so different from you, and that you disagree on pretty much everything, why don't you just speak clear and loud your difference, when questioned on that matter?

It is to me Obama's mistake. He's never given a clear explanation when asked questions on touchy issues.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

drumdance — Fri, 02 May 2008 13:01:30 -0000

Re: McCain/Hagee compared to Obama/Wright - I look at this through the prism of 20 years ago, when I voted for Bush I over Dukakis. I thought Bush I was fairly moderate and wouldn't be as beholden to the religious right (certainly not as much as Pat Robertson, who beat Bush in Iowa). While I still think Bush I is a moderate, the reality of party politics is that he had satisfy the Christianist base, which lead to real policy changes like banning doctors in government hospitals from even mentioning abortion as an option for women with unwanted pregnancies. That strain of appeasement has carried through to the current administration on issues such as family planning in Africa, government funding of faith-based initiatives and, of course, choosing Supreme Court justices.

IOW, McCain will be forced by politics to implement *policies* favored by the right, not just rhetoric.

OTOH, I really find it hard to believe that Obama will, for example, demand an investigation into whether the government is responsible for AIDS, or give a Presidential Medal of Freedom to Farrakhan.

If people want to focus on Wright and/or Hagee, they should ask whether their association with their respective candidates will have an actual effect on policy, not hand-wavy BS about "judgment." I like McCain, but I think his policies will be dramatically more impacted by his association with the Christian right than Obama's will be by so-called black liberation theology.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

fredwilson — Fri, 02 May 2008 12:40:02 -0000

Mike

This is an excellent comment, but it's really a blog post.

I am reblogging it at fredwilson.vc because it stands on its own and is
excellent

Thanks for sharing it with us

fred

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

fredwilson — Fri, 02 May 2008 12:34:02 -0000

You've thought a lot more about this than I have steve

I am not condemning religion

Just saying I don't go for it

fred

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

Mac — Fri, 02 May 2008 11:41:11 -0000

Perhaps the good reverend is not aware of the concept of separation of church and state? Perhaps he cannot decide whether he should fish for votes or souls?
Perhaps he should start paying taxes?

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

Antman — Fri, 02 May 2008 04:50:48 -0000

Mike well said. I will not argue with you. There clearly remains inequities and institutional discrimination in parts of our society. I should have not been as definitive in my term "eradicated".

I still stand behind my assertion that our "problem" our inability to gain traction or move ahead is NOT institutional racism, but the current ideologies of people like Rev. Wright. We have our own institution that perpetuates a message of victim, and oppression.

I would like to see a substantial change in the powerbase of the black community from those of Rev. Wright, Sharpton and Jackson to those of Cosby, Obama, O'Neil and Chenault. We need someone to stand up and say YUP, it sucked, we've been shit on, YUP, some folks are gonna keep shittin' on us. YUP it's hard! So, what are we gonna do about it?

I would like to see a change in message from what society can do for us to what we can do for ourselves. We don't need a million man march. We need a million student graduation campaign. (Imagine a campaign where we increased our graduation rate by 20% in the next 4 years. Imagine that being part of every sermon across the country. Imagine every May, every church, every hair salon and every barbershop talking about the numbers, imagine every mother and father wanting to make sure their kid WASN'T the kid bringing the number down, that is the dialog we need to have. Dialog like that won't happen while we are still blaming"

I would like to see the same outrage towards the blacks in a community who are busted for thuggin' as I do towards a police force for shooting a brother.

I want to see brothers and sisters applauded and celebrated by the community for being A students, not shunned.

I want to see and end to rappers and entertainers creating fake records to make themselves look like thugs cause it gives them cred!. Institutional racism doesn't make us celebrate being thugs.

I want to see us stop blaming and start changing!

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

MikeC — Fri, 02 May 2008 04:42:04 -0000

Here here! I am sick to death of commentary that evaluates Obama based on his few years in the Senate, as if he was birthed fully grown three years ago . Obama has had several careers, and in each career he has pursued the ideals that he is promoting today.

And your point on Hilary is well taken, as all children of the 60's have radicals in their past.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

MikeC — Fri, 02 May 2008 04:27:16 -0000

Antman,

There are components of what you say that I think are on point. The politics of victimhood are outdated and ineffective. I stand with Bill Cosby when he advocates for standing on our own.

But where I think you miss (and much of non-black/brown America misses) in your analysis is the assertion that institutional racism has been eradicated. It is true, that there has been much progress but there are absolutely institutions and systems that still exist and that continue to perpetuate inequality. Examples:

Laws that criminalize the possession of small amounts crack yet allow s the posession of 10 times that amount of powder cocaine to be a misdemeanor.

Funding school systems according to the tax base of the surrounding community. So if you happen to be born in a poor urban neighborhood, you are very likely to attend a sub-par school and have to "lift yourself" despite the conditions. This of course affects other groups as well, but it impacts blacks disproportionately because of our concentration in poorer, urban areas.

A judicial system that is likely to meter out prison time versus jail time if you are black. Or that is more likely to put you on death row for the same crimes that when committed by white defendants receive life or less.

Police forces that arrest blacks in far greater numbers (as a percentage of people actually stopped by police) than white perpetrators.

These are not anecdotal stories - statistics from governmental agencies, liberal watch groups and conservative think tanks alike have all tracked these effects. So to say that institutional racism is gone is just flat wrong.

Now I agree that we shouldn't use the fact that this still exists as an excuse not to rise above. What troubles me is that as long as people beleive that the problems are "behind us", they will take no action to continue to work on the problem. I certainly want to see Black people take more control of their destinies, but we will always be running a race with one leg as long as these issues are ignored by the people who can make those changes.

As long as all sides want to make it "their problem" (whether you be black, brown, white or purple), we will never have the level of dialogue and open analysis that will allow us to find permanent, workable solutions.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

Brian — Thu, 01 May 2008 22:52:46 -0000

Great reply Steve.

Just because one religious person behaves badly does not mean all do. For every preacher you see on TV, there are hundreds out their preaching about love and doing great work to lift others up.

This is like saying I can't stand science because of Al Gore uses junk science to tell people what to do.

I think it is a good thing that religious leaders like Martin Luther King and Gandhi told others what to do. I am glad Lincoln used his religion to inform his decision to tell the people in the Confederacy what to do. Religious leaders are usually the first to put their money where their mouth is when it comes to human rights in the third world.

The same people who tell me what light bulb I have to use, not to spank my kids, not to HAVE kids (Ted Turner), and how big my toilet bowl should be are the first people to tell me to shut up and stop telling them what to do when it comes to abortion and gay marriage.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

MikeC — Thu, 01 May 2008 17:05:13 -0000

I want to weigh in on this issue and I apologize in advance for this long post, but I just can't sit quietly anymore. I'm a black professional who went to high school and college (Stanford Undergrad) in mostly white schools and whose career was spent in an industry (semiconductors) where people like me were overwhelmingly under-represented. I find that Obama's candidacy is unconsciously causing the country to come face-to-face with its continuing discomfort with real discussions of race. The comments I see here, and that I have experienced at large are so much more painful than people "not of my color" can really imagine.

When Obama first decided to run I spoke to many of my friends who commented that their fear of his candidacy wasn't that he was too young, too inexperienced, too liberal, but that he was . . . well, just Black. And our fear was - that in the rough and tumble world of politics and the media's coverage of it, that the country would find ways to tear down a Black man for all the public to see; a public lynching of sorts.

I know those are strong words, but I'm expressing the strong fears that still exist in our community. And there are people who want to make us wrong for feeling this way, but feelings are neither right nor wrong - they just are. It's how we deal with those feelings that count.

In some ways Obama is one of the most perfect Black candidates, almost out of central casting. He's youthful and energetic, he's extremely well spoken (what that means in my neighborhood - he doesn't "sound" black, which has been a bit of a kiss of death for blacks in the public eye), he's highly educated, he's not from San Francisco or Austin, Texas (don't take offense - it's just that people in many parts of the country think that people from highly liberal cities don't share our values), he's a churchgoer, the list goes on.

Yet look at what seems to be the issues dragging him down:

Biggest Mistake One: He is associated,with maybe even likes, an angry Black preacher (my experience is that if you want to be sure that people not of your race discount you, be perceived as being "angry", whether you are justified or not). If that is a litmus test for a black candidate, it will be several more decades before we can run for office. Many black leaders from the civil rights era speak in angry tones, use hyperbole and exagerration to make their points, but are just as patriotic as George Bush or Rush Limbaugh. We understand that when one of us "condemns" America for Jim Crow (and its remnants), segregation, "economic apartheid" (Jesse Jackson's current favorite term), or whatever label is used, what we are saying is that America's actions are often out of alignment with its ideals, and that we can be better than that. I don't agree with Rev. Wright's use of words or characterizations, but I ABSOLUTELY understand his upset and his passion about what needs to be changed, and what needs to be exposed and discussed.

Biggest Mistake Two: He's being considered to be "elitist". OMG - this is the same fight that I fight with my own people when boys in the hood look down on kids with schoolbooks because they are trying to "act white" (as if that's some kind of disease). You know what, as an American I pray to god that my President is smarter than me and maybe has more education, more knowledge, more insight than I do because we need that level of sophistication to deal with a complicated world. And before you pile on about being able to "connect" with people yes, I want my President to be able to understand my situation, and empathize with my situation, but being able to bowl or liking deep friend twinkies is not a rational pre-requisite to running the most powerful nation on the planet. So for me, I hope that Obama is elite.

Biggest Mistake Three (and this is not really a mistake), he's inexperienced. This is a specious argument, you know why? It assumes that having experienced makes you more qualified to do this job. If that was the case then Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Chenney should have led us to the land of plenty. There were no more experienced people in the country than those two, yet look at the havoc they have caused. I don't care what you did before, I only care about your ability to make the right (or at least the best decisions). So I don't want to hear about this argument anymore.

And lastly, the press is complicit (and we with it) in dragging down our public discourse. If any of you on this blog were to have a camera in your face 24/7 and had any 10 words you spoke in any given day taken out of context, do you beleive that those 10 words are who you are or what you believe? We have to be better than our entertainment-driven press whose sole job is to look for the flaw or look for the hero story because that makes better headlines than, "New Candidate offers tough but reasonable plan to reduce hunger."

Who wants to buy that paper? I do, but I'm not sure many Americans wouldn't pass that up for "Hilary catches Bill with another intern!!"

OK, I'm done. Peace.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

SteveKane — Thu, 01 May 2008 16:45:34 -0000

Hmm. Maybe gonna split hairs again

yes god is a concept

but so is religion - a conceptual framework describing how to live (morality, ethics, behavior) and why (because it is in harmony with the larger order of things)

that is, religion is a way of living and seeing the universe. no more no less. as is "God." (I mean, "god" is not a natural phenomenon; "god" is a concept for describing a higher level of existance or consciousness or order

as for "men/women using god to tell other men/women what to do, think, believe," well, that describes a lot of things you strongly agree with also -- for example, the declaration of independence, the US constitution, the modern western "rule of law".

The opening of the Declaration states its purpose right up front: "to tell men/women what to do, think, believe", to tell men/women to (in Jefferson's words) "assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them."

In short, to see that God and nature compel a certain type of thinking and action, which overrides any/all arbitrary human systems.

And the document's perhaps most famous language says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Now, you and me and people like us love these words because we see them as liberating in the truest sense of the word -- allowing for -- demanding -- free will and social mobility and democracy and the like.

But while those words do that, they also certainly fall into the category of telling people "what to do" (cast off unnatural or ungodly systems if they interfere with natural/God-given "rights"), "what to think" (there is a higher power and order than any created by humans, including Kings) and "what to believe" (that all men are created equal -- a radically different philosophy/theology for its time, even for now.)

My point is not that all messages and views are equal. They are not. I am not a moral relativist -- I am a believer in good, and, yes, evil. But I think we sometimes throw the baby out with the bathwater when we condemn "religion" as if its not simply another philosophical or political or moral or ethical system, as full of positive messages as negative ones, as blood soaked as it is blessed.

Humankind has always been religious; I believe it will always be. Life and the universe are too damn hard and tragic and confusing -- sentient creatures will inevitably be attracted to these that suggest there is some higher order, not just raw hedonistic survival.

And btw, atheists are often the most "religious" people I know -- they typically claim, with vitriol, that the scientific method shows them there is no "god," no supernatural side of things. But they also believe -- with, yes, religious fervency -- that science also shows them Truth, and The True Order of Things. In short, for them, despite tsunamis of evidence to the contrary (consciousness, eugenics, the placebo effect) science is the One True Faith.

Thus concludeth thy sermon for today!

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

crawford — Thu, 01 May 2008 15:17:25 -0000

Fred, You and the Gal continue to give here, hosting the forum, pushing out the discussion. Thanks.
Scott

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

fredwilson — Thu, 01 May 2008 15:09:06 -0000

The gotham gal and I have given the max to Obama. I wish I could give more.

We also gave the max to Hillary.

Fred

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

fredwilson — Thu, 01 May 2008 15:09:06 -0000

Paul

Great discussion. I sure hope you are right. I am rooting for your guy

I put the NY Times chart on my blog today

http://avc.blogs.com/a_vc/2008/05/and-who-do-th...

fred

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

Aruni — Thu, 01 May 2008 13:55:30 -0000

Oh so true! Very well said. It is the perceived power that some religious people feel entitled to that I believe makes them act like this. Wright is now in the limelight and any threat to his perceived power over his church 'constituents' probably fuels him even further. It's really sad because I have observed that in groups where there has been decades of repression and self esteem issues, it is very hard to get past. It eats them up. They can't see beyond it. It's something about human nature that keeps us hanging on to the pain.

Sadly, I believe we (th US) are the catalyst for setting up a similar set of 'hard feelings' in the Middle East and Iraq. I don't think anyone should be surprised that people like Wright exist and will take the opportunity to further their agenda at the expense of others right before what could be a great shift in political thinking. I just hope people view him as an anomaly and don't then think Obama feels/thinks the same way. Just because one's friend or relative is an alcoholic does not mean one condones alcoholism.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. At it's core the message of Christianity, I believe, is forgiveness and acceptance. Wright, just like the Republicans who preach fiscal responsibility and make fiscally unsound decisions, seems to be following that road to hell and seems to be worshipping his anger above his God.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

merty — Thu, 01 May 2008 13:24:08 -0000

Sadly, most Americans can only look at Obama or any other candidate for that matter through the prism of religion. Thanks for the post.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

crawford — Thu, 01 May 2008 13:21:52 -0000

Thanks Fred. I was compelled to do one thing this week in response to all this: Donate again to the Obama campaign just to make sure my support is counted. Now more than ever. For the very reasons you outlined. Call me sisyphus. Back to the rock!

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

Paul Lightfoot — Thu, 01 May 2008 13:18:48 -0000

I don't read stock charts! The only stock (excluding indexes/funds) I've owned for the past several years has been Berkshire Hathaway.

But I did see the chart on the NYT front page today (from a hotel in Houston) and my first thought was "volatility". My second thought was that 51 is a much bigger number than 34. My third thought was that this was a poll of people that aren't going to make the decision (much of the respondents votes have already been counted and they gave the lead to Obama).

And then I read that a former DNC chairman under Bill Clinton just endorsed Obama in Indiana. And that 8 superdelegates went to Obama this week while 3 went to Clinton. Once again, the math is what it is. "If the dems think obama can't win in nov, he won't win the nomination" is a true statement, but the scoreboard shows that they DO think he'll win in Nov and that he will take the nomination. And time is running out.

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

fredwilson — Thu, 01 May 2008 13:12:05 -0000

Paul

If the dems think obama can't win in nov, he won't win the nomination

That's the whole point of superdelegates

I am not saying I am for superdelegates. But they can and will change their mind if they think its in the best interests of the party

Look at the chart on the front page of the times today

What would you do if that was a stock chart?

Fred

Re: The Lessons of Rev Wright

Paul Lightfoot — Thu, 01 May 2008 13:00:57 -0000

Fred, I appreciate your comments, which are thoughtful and interesting. As you know, I've been a big Obama supporter for a while.

The one point I'll add to your post is that it isn't quite time to call this a Shakespearean tragedy because there hasn't been an ending. In fact, almost all indicators suggest that Obama will still win. If that's the case, then this episode in hindsight will just be another bump in the road that strengthened Obama for the general election.

In the same line of thinking, I'm not ready to agree that "our country is not yet willing". If Obama wins (and the math is pretty clear at this point that he'll win) the primary, and then the general, then I'm going to conclude that the nation is willing and ready.

- Paul Lightfoot