I think Chris makes a logical argument about a lot of talented people being available due to job losses in the finance sector, but I think that the difficult economic environment is going to make it very challenging for startups to get the funding, especially as the cost of capital continues to rise for speculative companies. On a somewhat related note, as an investment opportunity, I would be quite skeptical investing in many of these tech startups at a time when the consumer is in terrible shape and the govt is trying to keep the financial markets from imploding. Instead, I think a safer alternative is to invest in gold related assets, given the Fed has made it clear they are going to try to avoid deflation at all costs. And all the money printing will lead to a lower dollar, and most likely a higher gold price, as further discussed here: http://www.goldalert.com . There are some serious long term inflationary consequences of the govt's plans.
Very feisty ceonyc! But well said and lots of data to back it up
David Semeria
· 3 months ago
If Zemanta managed it from Ljubljana (no offence intended) - one can only conclude there is hope for us all.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
That is still a work in progress. A very exciting one to be sure. But I wouldn't use the past tense
Mark Essel
· 3 months ago
When it comes to breathing life into a pre-startup I don't think founders have the luxury of discounting talented, passionate, contributors no matter where they hail from. Having a pool of local talent may be a favorable beneift to a starting home base. But I believe the future model of startups will follow the trail blazed by Matt Mullenweg with Automattic
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
no doubt
Max Niederhofer
· 3 months ago
Can you explain what you mean by "the trail blazed by Matt Mullenweg with Automattic"? I'm not sure I follow.
loupaglia
· 3 months ago
Max: Matt and Toni have built a company in Automattic that is pretty remarkable that it builds such great stuff and is basically completely virtual. The have engineers all around the world. They have an office in SF which is normally empty except for socials and I think the last I heard their highest employee count in any one city was four.
Mark Essel
· 3 months ago
Thanks Lou I was tied up during the day and you more than explained my thoughts. Appreciate the mention of Toni as well, his expertise is pretty incredible (on the business side).
chris dixon
· 3 months ago
Hey Fred - I love NYC. I fell in love with this city the day I stepped foot here 15 years ago from Ohio, and will probably never leave. Those companies you mention are all great. But realistically, California has just crushed NYC this decade. You would know better than me but my impression is in the 90s, NYC was much closer. I am attributing this gap to the financial bubble and am hoping that the bursting of the bubble will lead to a resurgence in NYC.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Out of curiousity, what would be the companies that "crushed it" from the west coast? i can give you YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Wordpress, Zynga. What else?
chris dixon
· 3 months ago
Well, Google itself is a 2000's story mostly, isn't it? LinkedIn, Yelp, Netflix. I don't know enterprise as well but Salesforce comes to mind.
Donald
· 3 months ago
additional California winners recent history (internet); Open Table (OPEN), Bridgepoint Education (BPI), Netsuite............
look no further than today where the talent is; today alone Skyfire, Coupa and Thread.com announced VC financing. Though of course still lots to show.
Cali is the king
ShanaC
· 3 months ago
What's old is new again with Thread, eh. I have a bunch of people who need that....
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
No argument about that. My point is that NYC is a much bigger deal than it gets credit for, not that it is king
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
And youtube
ceonyc
· 3 months ago
Yeah... I was wondering about that... Add in LinkedIn, but given the size of their startup market, it's not like there have been a ton of huge exits there lately either.
Ted Rogers
· 3 months ago
NY already is the East Coast center of social media and it will only become more so. One thing not mentioned by Chris or Fred -- NY has two excellent universities (close together) pumping out more strong entrepreneurs and ideas every year. Only hitch -- the thesis of Chris and Fred depends somewhat on the 800-pound gorilla of Wall Street scaling back. The tide is going out on Wall Street now but it will come back in -- its a cyclical thing, not permanent - and it will take some air out of the tech scene when it does. Silicon Valley doesn't have that inhibitor -- the tech community IS the 800-lb gorilla. www.vc-brazil.com
ShanaC
· 3 months ago
One of the things I long term hope to see is that the two groups work together. Wall Street culture used to be a much happier place, from reports I hear. Also, like law, to some degree it is an up or out culture.
Finding space for partnership for corporate media and tech needs and not have everyone chasing after youth culture (there is wisdom in being somewhat older), might serve long term needs well.
kskobac
· 3 months ago
not all that tech related, but Metro had a small article today highlighting the NYC start-up incubator efforts; many of the businesses are being given cheap desk-space in the NYU Polytech building and grants for work:
It's interesting to see the city fund growing business like this, and it's great to see it's beginning to attract (at least in the one example in the article) international talent coming to the US.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
real estate is not a scarce resource in NYC, but every little bit helps
ShanaC
· 3 months ago
YOu would know this better than I would, but how many startups are happening outside of NYC borders but in commuting distance? (IE Nassau/Suffolk, Weschester, Eastern CT, Jersey?) Not everyone has to be in Manhattan and Brooklyn, right?
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Indeed is in stamford, ct. Not everyone is in nyc proper. But most are for recruiting purposes mostly
DaveinHackensack
· 3 months ago
A start-up I worked for started in an incubator in Trenton, NJ, of all places. The AC didn't work there, so our joke was that it was hot like a real incubator. It then moved to a non-fancy town in central NJ called East Windsor. Meanwhile, if memory serves, one of its better-financed competitors was based in Boston and the other in NYC. Long story short: the company I worked for is still around (and in the middle of the pack on the Inc 5000 list), and its two better-financed competitors aren't.
When I was there, I used the company's non-prestigious location as a selling point, noting for potential end-user clients that it enabled the company to offer them lower costs, and noting to potential private label partners that it demonstrated the management's prudence. It also helped though that much of the skilled labor pool for this particular industry was located in central NJ, so the location made sense on that score as well.
thomasl824
· 3 months ago
A few years ago there was an attempt to turn Governors's Island into a tech center. Maybe it's time to revisit that idea.
ShanaC
· 3 months ago
Ancideotally, when you hear office listening at NYTECh, a lot is happening in Brooklyn. They like it for the same reason a lot of people are liking Brooklyn. Hey, even I think parts of Brooklyn are cooler than Manhattan for the same or less money...
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Brooklyn rocks. I'm headed there now to meet with one of our companies. A lot is happening in brooklyn
robsayre
· 3 months ago
Should see something along the lines of Y Combinator Bushwick soon. Maybe you should find out who's doing it and invest. ;)
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
We can't play favorites by backing one incubator and not another. But we'd love to look at the companies you are incubating
DaveinHackensack
· 3 months ago
There's also, apparently, an emerging scene of culinary-oriented entrepreneurship in Brooklyn too. I wrote a post a few months ago on this, after reading an NYT article on the subject, Lessons from Brooklyn's New Economy. I didn't mention it in that post, but another example of Brooklyn-based culinary entrepreneurship was Isa Chandra Moskowitz and her "Post Punk Kitchen". She's since decamped for Portland, OR though.
ceonyc
· 3 months ago
Too far from the Shake Shack.
ShanaC
· 3 months ago
Could someone clue me in on what the Shake Shack is? I see references to it all the time, and I have no idea what anyone is talking about....
Philip
· 3 months ago
It's a popular burger joint in madison square park. I believe there is another one but not sure. Only been to that one.
BmoreWire
· 3 months ago
People seriously line up all the way out to the flat iron building for that place....it's kind of ridiculous.
Best burger joint and just two blocks from my office in madison square park
Jonathan Betz
· 3 months ago
Fred - great point about the scaling back of Wall Street, but what do you expect from Google NYC as the economy returns? My guess (having worked there from 03 - 08) is that they will start hiring a large portion of the available talent pool starting early next year. On the whole, that's good for building a tech economy - it's easier to go to a startup when there are reliable fall-back options in the same market, but Google could also wind up hiring a lot of potential founders.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
hi Jonathan
we are seeing talent coming to and going from Google NYC
it's not a one way street anymore
Elie Seidman
· 3 months ago
Our office is right next to the Google NYC office and come 5pm the Googlers can be found cramming the elevator. Reminds me of the parking lot exodus from Microsoft when I was an intern on the Redmond campus back in 95. Sure, there were some folks who burned the midnight oil but by then that was the rare exception - Microsoft was very much BigCo. With 10K+ employees - Google is BigCo. In my experience, founders are not the kind of people who go work for BigCo once it is already BigCo. It might happen but I don't worry about Google sucking up that specific type of person.
aaronklein
· 3 months ago
Not to completely disagree with your comment, Elie -- but I think some things about how we work have changed too since 95. Laptops and fast internet access weren't quite as widespread to allow highly productive work from home.
Offices are becoming much more about the place to have meetings and the productive work often gets done elsewhere. (Although in my own case, my office is a very productive place...)
Jonathan Betz
· 3 months ago
Great point - the flow out of Google has been a bit slow over the last year, but it's very likely to pick up as the economy improves.
farhanlalji
· 3 months ago
Hey Fred, is there any way to have discuss comments applied to all posts discussing the same topic? Shame there's two different conversations here on your blog and on Chris's.
Made the point there that it's not just NYC, but the same idea could be applied to London where a lot of my classmates at B school went the Big bank, hedge fund etc route rather then the start up route a few years back, this is changing with this years class - definitely a good thing.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Yes. I could have grabbed some disqus code and stuck chris' comment thread at the bottom of this post. Its too late to do that now unfortunately.
Business Insider does that when they re-run one of my posts on their blog
Gerald Buckley
· 3 months ago
NYC certainly has the population and the opportunities to produce talent. Law of large numbers dictates a more predictable, stable pool of talent there. How about the cost of living (as opposed to the quality of living)? Twitter is past that startup stage and barreling into it's next stage of maturity so this may not apply so much to them (or it might)... How does a city like NYC affect the burn rate on capital v. someplace like, oh I don't know... Tulsa? :)
Noah from Twitpic started up here. One guy. Low cost of living. Sean and Adam of Ping.fm... same thing and they're down the hall from me. Vidoop was here (and arguably should have stayed put). There are lots of us doing ambitious bootstrapped startups and getting LOTS more runway out of a lower cost of living. And I'm sure it's that way across the country. Topeka. Fargo. The Long Tail of Startups. Can the ROI on our exits make for a compelling equation for the VC to pay a little more attention to the deals here?
While there's no shortage of potential deal flow in fly over country... I keep hearing from the startup scene here and Kansas City and Oklahoma City and Little Rock that the VC aren't doing many term sheets here because of locale.
What if a quality startup showed eagerness to open an app dev satellite office in Manhattan or Mountain View but remained headquartered in the heartland... Does that change the equation for the VC at all? Board meetings can still happen at the startup's satellite office, etc.
Am honestly curious to know if this tips things. Or, does it really come down to a fundable startup can be anywhere these days (an airplane, a barge, a sailboat or Laramie, WY)?
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
I think you should do your startup where you want to live. If that is Tulsa then that is where you shoulkd do it. The issue will come when you want to scale it into a real business with sales, customer service, tech ops, etc. Finding the right talent and the people to manage that talent at scale is simetimes hard outside of the big startup centers like bay area, NYC, seattle, boston, etc
Elie Seidman
· 3 months ago
Since it's apropos to the post - don't forget the mother of all NYC startup scale ups - Bloomberg himself. With 19M people in the metro area, there are more than enough people in any field - be it engineering, development, design - etc to be able to easily scale up a business. From 2000 to 2006 I scaled a business based in NYC. Despite competing with the wall street bubble, we were still able to attract smart, passionate people in all of the relevant disciplines we needed. We never once wished were in the valley - especially not at 11pm when we were leaving the office and wanted food options other than In-N-Out Burger (which is delicious). While I don't have any real data to support this, my instinct is that employees in NYC are less likely than those in the valley to quickly jump ship to the "next cool thing"; a startup can't win by hoping that weak competition for its employees will keep them grounded where they are but a little less frothiness does not hurt either.
DaveinHackensack
· 3 months ago
That's an interesting example, when you think about it.
Fred, if you haven't written one before, any chance you'll write a post on how Bloomberg (the company) continues to thrive with its retro user interface?
ShanaC
· 3 months ago
Don't you really wish we could interview the mayor about this very subject...now that would be so cool. FYI he looks awesome in the photo op.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Its called a monopoly. In their case on a communication system. Bloomberg's mail/IM system is so dominant on wall street that you can't do business without access to it
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Yeah. Bloomberg is the archetypical nyc entrepreneur. Too bad he's so detatched from the nyc startup scene. Maybe his willingness to court Jack means he's changing his tune
phineasb
· 3 months ago
Fred- I agree with you that "NYC is a serious tech startup community with the talent to scale a large tech company." and over the last few months I have been really taken with the talented people I have met and their efforts to foster and support the start-up scene in the city.Wall Street is certainly cyclical, but I believe the entrepreneurs who decided to build companies in this downturn, who are investing in the NYC community now, are taking risk out of the equation for those who will be making career choices in the upturn and I hope the virtuous cycle is beginning and that it will extend well beyond the advertising industry. However, relatively speaking, we have a long way to go as illustrated by this chart ( http://frc.vc/74 ). Granted, some of this is due to the industries that are attracting investment in these geographies, but if we are going to compare NYC to the Bay Area, these numbers need to change significantly.
Phin
jeremystein
· 3 months ago
are you finding that the distribution of people who leave wall st for startups is skewed to older/more experienced?
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
No. Its the opposite. Tends to be the younger ones who don't have the golden handcuffs
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
No. Its the opposite. Tends to be the younger ones who don't have the golden handcuffs
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
No. Its the opposite. Tends to be the younger ones who don't have the golden handcuffs
jeremystein
· 3 months ago
Do you think that trend is going to reverse? Although jr finance positions are relatively scarce every bank raised base salaries when they took on TARP. Not every large bank has repaid TARP which will impact an md more than an analyst.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
I think wall street will permanently shrink
Chris Dodge
· 3 months ago
Being a ex-NYC'er in Boston for the past 10 years, do you have a quick comparative analysis between NYC and Boston with respect to the start-up scene and tech talent pool?
My vague hunch is that we may be loosing some ground up here lately, but I can't exactly put my finger on the how or why. Perhaps it's in the strong emergence of Social Media applications that can tap into NYC's rich history in Advertising and other creative pools of talent?
karen_e
· 3 months ago
I am interested in the Boston/Cambridge question as well.
marko
· 3 months ago
I'm a new transplant to Boston also. Would appreciate opinions on the area. My raw first impression is that the universities attract a lot of talent and have a lot of interesting research projects, but I haven't come across a lot of consumer internet start-ups. Everything seems heavily tilted towards B2B. Not sure if its a misinterpretation on my part, a local cultural thing, or what..... thoughts?
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
I think its a legacy problem. Boston made so much with minicomputers, desktop software, and comm equipment. That's their legacy and muscle memory. It's hard to unlearn those tricks when you've made so much money with them
Carl Rahn Griffith
· 3 months ago
Interesting use of the term 'muscle memory', Fred - nice to see it used out of the confines of my dreadful golf swing!
Very true - how the legacy of a region's industry/services stays in the psyche decades later. I spent a lot of time in the Mass' region back in the 80s/early 90s and know what you mean. Virtually everyone in any company I met seemed to hail from DEC. A great, innovative company for a while back then, but not necessarily a healthy thing - "We did it this way at DEC" etc ...
I sense the danger of the same kind of thing happening in even what is considered to be the more contemporary software business nowadays. Same old, same old.
This is why I very much subscribe to the ideas explored in 'Funky Business' - a book/philosophy probably already consigned to the 'no longer radical' bin, but a book worth re-reading in this context.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Headed to my kindle asap
Thanks for the tip
William Mougayar
· 3 months ago
I like to see Ecosystems competing with each other. That's healthy overall.
Dave Morgan
· 3 months ago
Not only does NYC have a strong start-up scene, but it's getting better all of the time.
When I started Real Media in 1995, NYC lacked a lot of the basic infrastructure, services and institutional culture that Silicon Valley had in spades - we didn't have real estate folks that knew how to deal with start-ups. Our law firms and accounting firms didn't understand the unique needs of start-ups. There weren't pools of tech-savvy talent ready to take start-up risks. When I started TACODA in 2001, it had gotten much better, but it was still far from where the Valley was in terms of start-up "friendliness." Having revisited these issues once again when I started Simulmedia late last year, I can say that a lot has changed; a lot has improved.
NYC real estate brokers and landlords now understand us and offer leases with the kinds of flexibility start-ups need. Many professional service firms in NYC are now very start-up savvy and friendly. We now have lots of talent eager to join start-ups, and more is coming into the city every day. And, just as important, the city government and the local and business media now focus on start-ups and start-up investors and now celebrate the successes of the start-up community and recognize that NYC is not just about Wall Street. Silicon Valley has provided a great environment for start-ups for many, many years, however, I suspect that it hasn't improved that much over the years, certainly not to the extent that New York City has.
aarondelcohen
· 3 months ago
Dave, I actually think it's even bigger than this.
We are becoming an increasingly networked community through Shake Shack events, tonight's NY Tech Meetup, conferences, and a community of 20-somethings that work hard/play hard. I think the city is starting too build more of the Valley's informal networking institutions that play such a crucial role in how the Valley interconnects its people.
DaveinHackensack
· 3 months ago
Shake Shack events? I could use the excuse to get another great burger there. Do you have a link re these events?
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
I agree with everything except possibly the government. I think they are still clueless on how to help and focus on low value stuff like real estate and creating seed funds that aren't organized for success
GraemeHein
· 3 months ago
60% marginal taxes in the next few years and the most expensive city in North America makes NYC a great place for startups to leave.
Obama's war on corporations isn't going to help either, nor will the attack on general partners (60% vs 20% tax is going to be huge for hedge and vc, unless you've already made a few hundred mil).
Move to Toronto - lower corporate taxes, lower income taxes, much cheaper on all metrics, and a stable financial system (pretty much the only one globally). Plus a Toronto domicile makes you impervious to all nativist posturing in congress or exclusionary wording in spending bills that can hurt companies with headquarters in other parts of the world, especially offshore centers.
On top of all that, you're 1.5 hour flight to Newark and 2 hours to O'Hare on the best airline in North America. Porter gives you the best experience, has the best hub with Toronto Island Airport, no lines, a free 5 minute ride from downtown. One way from $104 US, 6 flights daily.
GlennKelman
· 3 months ago
I've just always felt that costs are less relevant to a startup than talent and revenue. Or put more precisely, you can control costs anywhere. California has high taxes too, but you don't see many companies leaving for Nevada.
GraemeHein
· 3 months ago
Actually you are seeing people & businesses leaving for Nevada.
You are also seeing firms & people fleeing London for Zurich & Geneva.
If you're not concerned about costs and taxes, you have no business in management. Toronto is very competitive on all the other dimensions - financial sector, media, advertising, corporate headquarters... so how much value is there in being in Manhattan vs being close enough to Manhattan.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Lifestyle and being around the most creative and stimulating people in the world is what keeps me here
Carl Rahn Griffith
· 3 months ago
Agree.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Yeah but you don't live in the greatest city in the world then. I'd rather pay 60pcnt in taxes than live anywhere else
Carl Rahn Griffith
· 3 months ago
You can't put a price on the value of the external stimulus from your environment - that's why there's a 'New York Minute' but not a Nevada/etc one.
jonathanmendez
· 3 months ago
NYC is (and will continue to be) the epicenter of advertising & publishing. As these mediums experience sea change it is inevitable that homegrown start-ups will be the ones that help revive the old and create the new.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Yes. Same is true of finance
egoboss
· 3 months ago
I'd take NYC over Calif' as a startup base any time. Much as I love California.
Same applies for Sheffield vs London ;-)
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
You might have to root for chelsea if you lived in london carl
Carl Rahn Griffith
· 3 months ago
The underdog supporter spirit would probably prevail - so, would probably have to be Charlton, Fred ;-)
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
I'll join you in that!
Ryan
· 3 months ago
Not discussed is the kind of products the respective locations seem to produce through tech startups. I went through the whole school and startup scene in silicon valley this decade, and relocated to NYC this year after tiring of the disconnect between the technology developing in the valley (e.g. flash widgets, ad networks) and real value-add utility to a consumer. Not that there aren't lots of exceptions to this perception, but in general.
cphenner
· 3 months ago
My history: Four years in Chicago, five years in the Bay Area and five years in NYC, and I look forward in the future to working in all of them. I have worked in startups in all three cities (e.g., Spyglass, Napster, Thumbplay) -- my point is I bring no strong biases and firsthand living/working into this thread...three comments:
1. ceonyc's response, because it actually has data, is great (http://bit.ly/jKhSX). If you read Chris Dixon's post, you will not see one, single dollar sign or numerical figure -- I can't believe it created this fuss.
2. Kevin Ryan presented data-driven PPT at the June 2008 New Tech Meetup for Internet Week (cannot find a link) that concluded $35 billion in tech/startup assets had been created over the previous decade, and that this was a strong second-place to the Valley -- he also confirmed the 'closing gap' trend.
3. Using macroeconomic data to talk about the feasibility of scaling a startup is so apples-to-oranges it's crazy. Four or five committed people turn a zygote-stage company to a Series A contender -- to compare that to the 'labor pool' or who's leaving Google or anything macro is simply missing the point. The talent exists anywhere -- what's 'easier' in the Valley is getting over-funded too early, in my view.
I do think there are geographical biases in the fundraising scene that make being in NY or CA a huge advantage, and those are the only two states where digital downloads are exempt from state sales tax :)
AS
· 3 months ago
What are the good websites to track startups in NYC?
the NY tech company landscape and is very much underrated ... in addition to the companies mentioned in the post, aCerno was sold to Akamai for 90MM, Media Whiz is a 70MM company, 360i is among the largest of the independent agencies, Tremor is here, most of Joost is / was here, Blip - small but innovative, Massive was a NY company before being bought by msft. And NY is clearly the hub for for compnies working on innovation in the display ad space - AppNexus, Media Math, Collective Media, AdMeld, Media6 are all here and run by teams on their second or third NY tech start up. And these are the few that I came up with thinking about it for two minutes.
So .. the argument that you can't scale a tech enabled business in NY might have been valid in 99 it doesn't hold up in 09
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
I left out HuffPo, College Humor, Daily Candy and a bunch of other big ones too
Fred - I believe we still have some work to do to bring NYC to the level of SPICES that we need. SPICES, in the sense of addressing a number of the issues that are still facing NYC Tech companies and entrepreneurs. I discussed it here: http://sanford.blogspot.com/2009/09/new-york-po...
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
I don't agree with your spices analysis. None of that is holding us back. I don't even think we are being held back. I've been doing early stage VC in NYC since 1986. The first ten years NYC was not much of a player. The second ten year we were a player but many of the spices issues were holding us back. Now, I think we are good to go
jdfalk
· 3 months ago
Much of Return Path's management is in NYC, but almost all of the techies are in Colorado and California...so I'm not sure we count towards that relevance metric.
Some of the others are impressive, though I can't help noticing that there's a strong bias towards marketing support rather than consumer products. Is this because NYC is the historical home of the ad biz?
Ted Rogers
· 3 months ago
Why don't we clarify what we mean by "tech scene"? We are comparing apples and oranges -- in the area of social media, NY is nearly as good as Silicon Valley, IMHO and it will only get stronger (for one thing, advertising is a critical component of social media business models and NY owns the ad industry). On the other hand, NY will never rival SV in alternative energy, semiconductors, etc. For what it's worth, see link below to the study of top "high-tech" centers in N. Am. by the Milken Institute. SV is #1, then Seattle, Boston and DC. NY is #9... That and $3.89 will get you a cup of coffee. http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=862598...
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Do you know what criteria the milken institute used in that study? If you use VC investment dollars, you get a very different story
jsrand
· 3 months ago
This survey looks like it is based on dated information.
pescatello
· 3 months ago
I think it shows the larger point that you don't HAVE to be in Silicon Valley to be successful in the internet world. But people who are located there like to think that you do. There are successful companies being built all the time all over the world.
kidmercury
· 3 months ago
here's a great video of bloomberg being confronted for his role in the 9/11 coverup, and for his refusal to get the 9/11 first responders the healthcare they need.
sorry for bringing this up, i know it gets in the way of making money. or so it seems. old timers like me though are always more concerned with the big picture -- the reasons for which will be apparent soon enough, in case they are not already.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Is there a public official you do like kid?
kidmercury
· 3 months ago
my boy ron paul is my all time favorite, he is without question the kooks' choice. if congress was filled with people like him we would not have any economic crisis or anything like that. we are so fortunate to have him.
kucinich i also like quite a bit, with the exception of his anti-2nd amendment stance.
jim demint has done a great job of hatin' on the fed and has been active in supporting legislation to audit the fed.
brad sherman of california has also spoken out about the financial terrorism that wall st and the powers that be are doing when they threatened to destroy the economy if bailouts were not granted.
dan patrick is a little too much on the religious conservative side of things, but i like him, he understands and supports the basic libertarian principles.
i know you like the begich guy from alaska, i am a big fan of him as well. he is a closet kook as his dad was killed for telling the truth.
on the state and local level there are also some great people working hard to protect states' rights. there is some guy in oklahoma named keyes or something like that who comes to mind.
though no longer active, i like former minnesota governor jesse ventura and former congresswoman cynthia mckinney (mckinney is too socialist and supports silly things like reparations for slavery, but she has immense courage, real integrity, and fought for 9/11 truth to the extent that she basically lost her seat in congress because of it, so i have to give her mad props). former congressman and 9/11 commission member max cleland is also someone i give props to because he has basically admitted that 9/11 was an inside job.
though in general it is true that i don't like most politicians. as a general rule of thumb any candidate that gets serious attention from the mainstream media is too corrupt for me to respect. although when you look at the state of this country, can you really blame me? to be a fan of government is to be tolerant of wars based on lies and tax rates in excess of 50%.
oh, and any public official who supports 9/11 truth is probably someone i have a deep respect for. here is the list.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
You gotta start the kook party and recruit all these people to it. I'm not sure I could be a member, but I'd sure love to see you all in action. It would be good for us and fun too
kidmercury
· 3 months ago
lol, we definitely have to call it the kook party...."the kook party, founded by kid mercury"....lol can you imagine
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
You have to do it
Fashion Luvr
· 3 months ago
Damn, I didn't know Alley was part of Gilt. Very impressive.
fredwilson
· 3 months ago
Yup. Those guys are smart
jsrand
· 3 months ago
This survey looks like it is based on dated information.
don't forget recyclebank, 33across, media6degrees, kickapps, buzzd and more..! i left the bay area for NY in 2005 when my previous company was acquired, and i have been complaining about NY startup excitement until now. good to see and looking forward to bringing this to the next level with all of you!
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look no further than today where the talent is; today alone Skyfire, Coupa and Thread.com announced VC financing. Though of course still lots to show.
Cali is the king
Only hitch -- the thesis of Chris and Fred depends somewhat on the 800-pound gorilla of Wall Street scaling back. The tide is going out on Wall Street now but it will come back in -- its a cyclical thing, not permanent - and it will take some air out of the tech scene when it does.
Silicon Valley doesn't have that inhibitor -- the tech community IS the 800-lb gorilla.
www.vc-brazil.com
Finding space for partnership for corporate media and tech needs and not have everyone chasing after youth culture (there is wisdom in being somewhat older), might serve long term needs well.
http://www.metro.us/us/article/2009/09/01/05/18...
It's interesting to see the city fund growing business like this, and it's great to see it's beginning to attract (at least in the one example in the article) international talent coming to the US.
When I was there, I used the company's non-prestigious location as a selling point, noting for potential end-user clients that it enabled the company to offer them lower costs, and noting to potential private label partners that it demonstrated the management's prudence. It also helped though that much of the skilled labor pool for this particular industry was located in central NJ, so the location made sense on that score as well.
we are seeing talent coming to and going from Google NYC
it's not a one way street anymore
Offices are becoming much more about the place to have meetings and the productive work often gets done elsewhere. (Although in my own case, my office is a very productive place...)
Made the point there that it's not just NYC, but the same idea could be applied to London where a lot of my classmates at B school went the Big bank, hedge fund etc route rather then the start up route a few years back, this is changing with this years class - definitely a good thing.
Business Insider does that when they re-run one of my posts on their blog
Noah from Twitpic started up here. One guy. Low cost of living. Sean and Adam of Ping.fm... same thing and they're down the hall from me. Vidoop was here (and arguably should have stayed put). There are lots of us doing ambitious bootstrapped startups and getting LOTS more runway out of a lower cost of living. And I'm sure it's that way across the country. Topeka. Fargo. The Long Tail of Startups. Can the ROI on our exits make for a compelling equation for the VC to pay a little more attention to the deals here?
While there's no shortage of potential deal flow in fly over country... I keep hearing from the startup scene here and Kansas City and Oklahoma City and Little Rock that the VC aren't doing many term sheets here because of locale.
What if a quality startup showed eagerness to open an app dev satellite office in Manhattan or Mountain View but remained headquartered in the heartland... Does that change the equation for the VC at all? Board meetings can still happen at the startup's satellite office, etc.
Am honestly curious to know if this tips things. Or, does it really come down to a fundable startup can be anywhere these days (an airplane, a barge, a sailboat or Laramie, WY)?
Fred, if you haven't written one before, any chance you'll write a post on how Bloomberg (the company) continues to thrive with its retro user interface?
I agree with you that "NYC is a serious tech startup community with the talent to scale a large tech company." and over the last few months I have been really taken with the talented people I have met and their efforts to foster and support the start-up scene in the city.Wall Street is certainly cyclical, but I believe the entrepreneurs who decided to build companies in this downturn, who are investing in the NYC community now, are taking risk out of the equation for those who will be making career choices in the upturn and I hope the virtuous cycle is beginning and that it will extend well beyond the advertising industry.
However, relatively speaking, we have a long way to go as illustrated by this chart ( http://frc.vc/74 ). Granted, some of this is due to the industries that are attracting investment in these geographies, but if we are going to compare NYC to the Bay Area, these numbers need to change significantly.
Phin
are relatively scarce every bank raised base salaries when they took on
TARP. Not every large bank has repaid TARP which will impact an md more than
an analyst.
My vague hunch is that we may be loosing some ground up here lately, but I can't exactly put my finger on the how or why. Perhaps it's in the strong emergence of Social Media applications that can tap into NYC's rich history in Advertising and other creative pools of talent?
Very true - how the legacy of a region's industry/services stays in the psyche decades later. I spent a lot of time in the Mass' region back in the 80s/early 90s and know what you mean. Virtually everyone in any company I met seemed to hail from DEC. A great, innovative company for a while back then, but not necessarily a healthy thing - "We did it this way at DEC" etc ...
I sense the danger of the same kind of thing happening in even what is considered to be the more contemporary software business nowadays. Same old, same old.
This is why I very much subscribe to the ideas explored in 'Funky Business' - a book/philosophy probably already consigned to the 'no longer radical' bin, but a book worth re-reading in this context.
Thanks for the tip
When I started Real Media in 1995, NYC lacked a lot of the basic infrastructure, services and institutional culture that Silicon Valley had in spades - we didn't have real estate folks that knew how to deal with start-ups. Our law firms and accounting firms didn't understand the unique needs of start-ups. There weren't pools of tech-savvy talent ready to take start-up risks. When I started TACODA in 2001, it had gotten much better, but it was still far from where the Valley was in terms of start-up "friendliness." Having revisited these issues once again when I started Simulmedia late last year, I can say that a lot has changed; a lot has improved.
NYC real estate brokers and landlords now understand us and offer leases with the kinds of flexibility start-ups need. Many professional service firms in NYC are now very start-up savvy and friendly. We now have lots of talent eager to join start-ups, and more is coming into the city every day. And, just as important, the city government and the local and business media now focus on start-ups and start-up investors and now celebrate the successes of the start-up community and recognize that NYC is not just about Wall Street. Silicon Valley has provided a great environment for start-ups for many, many years, however, I suspect that it hasn't improved that much over the years, certainly not to the extent that New York City has.
We are becoming an increasingly networked community through Shake Shack events, tonight's NY Tech Meetup, conferences, and a community of 20-somethings that work hard/play hard. I think the city is starting too build more of the Valley's informal networking institutions that play such a crucial role in how the Valley interconnects its people.
Obama's war on corporations isn't going to help either, nor will the attack on general partners (60% vs 20% tax is going to be huge for hedge and vc, unless you've already made a few hundred mil).
Move to Toronto - lower corporate taxes, lower income taxes, much cheaper on all metrics, and a stable financial system (pretty much the only one globally). Plus a Toronto domicile makes you impervious to all nativist posturing in congress or exclusionary wording in spending bills that can hurt companies with headquarters in other parts of the world, especially offshore centers.
On top of all that, you're 1.5 hour flight to Newark and 2 hours to O'Hare on the best airline in North America. Porter gives you the best experience, has the best hub with Toronto Island Airport, no lines, a free 5 minute ride from downtown. One way from $104 US, 6 flights daily.
You are also seeing firms & people fleeing London for Zurich & Geneva.
If you're not concerned about costs and taxes, you have no business in management. Toronto is very competitive on all the other dimensions - financial sector, media, advertising, corporate headquarters... so how much value is there in being in Manhattan vs being close enough to Manhattan.
Same applies for Sheffield vs London ;-)
1. ceonyc's response, because it actually has data, is great (http://bit.ly/jKhSX). If you read Chris Dixon's post, you will not see one, single dollar sign or numerical figure -- I can't believe it created this fuss.
2. Kevin Ryan presented data-driven PPT at the June 2008 New Tech Meetup for Internet Week (cannot find a link) that concluded $35 billion in tech/startup assets had been created over the previous decade, and that this was a strong second-place to the Valley -- he also confirmed the 'closing gap' trend.
3. Using macroeconomic data to talk about the feasibility of scaling a startup is so apples-to-oranges it's crazy. Four or five committed people turn a zygote-stage company to a Series A contender -- to compare that to the 'labor pool' or who's leaving Google or anything macro is simply missing the point. The talent exists anywhere -- what's 'easier' in the Valley is getting over-funded too early, in my view.
I do think there are geographical biases in the fundraising scene that make being in NY or CA a huge advantage, and those are the only two states where digital downloads are exempt from state sales tax :)
http://www.hotindianstartups.com
So .. the argument that you can't scale a tech enabled business in NY might have been valid in 99 it doesn't hold up in 09
Some of the others are impressive, though I can't help noticing that there's a strong bias towards marketing support rather than consumer products. Is this because NYC is the historical home of the ad biz?
On the other hand, NY will never rival SV in alternative energy, semiconductors, etc.
For what it's worth, see link below to the study of top "high-tech" centers in N. Am. by the Milken Institute.
SV is #1, then Seattle, Boston and DC. NY is #9... That and $3.89 will get you a cup of coffee.
http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=862598...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7442487...
remember bloomberg also tried to get cameras banned in the city.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/29/nyregion/29ca...
curiously, though, bloomberg said those who objected to surveillance cameras in nyc were "ridiculous":
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/octobe...
want to question bloomberg about any of this in the land of the free? think twice. you'll get arrested.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/luke-rudowski-arres...
sorry for bringing this up, i know it gets in the way of making money. or so it seems. old timers like me though are always more concerned with the big picture -- the reasons for which will be apparent soon enough, in case they are not already.
kucinich i also like quite a bit, with the exception of his anti-2nd amendment stance.
jim demint has done a great job of hatin' on the fed and has been active in supporting legislation to audit the fed.
brad sherman of california has also spoken out about the financial terrorism that wall st and the powers that be are doing when they threatened to destroy the economy if bailouts were not granted.
dan patrick is a little too much on the religious conservative side of things, but i like him, he understands and supports the basic libertarian principles.
i know you like the begich guy from alaska, i am a big fan of him as well. he is a closet kook as his dad was killed for telling the truth.
on the state and local level there are also some great people working hard to protect states' rights. there is some guy in oklahoma named keyes or something like that who comes to mind.
though no longer active, i like former minnesota governor jesse ventura and former congresswoman cynthia mckinney (mckinney is too socialist and supports silly things like reparations for slavery, but she has immense courage, real integrity, and fought for 9/11 truth to the extent that she basically lost her seat in congress because of it, so i have to give her mad props). former congressman and 9/11 commission member max cleland is also someone i give props to because he has basically admitted that 9/11 was an inside job.
though in general it is true that i don't like most politicians. as a general rule of thumb any candidate that gets serious attention from the mainstream media is too corrupt for me to respect. although when you look at the state of this country, can you really blame me? to be a fan of government is to be tolerant of wars based on lies and tax rates in excess of 50%.
oh, and any public official who supports 9/11 truth is probably someone i have a deep respect for. here is the list.
http://technbiz.blogspot.com/2007/09/silicon-ci...