A VC - Latest Comments in Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Nigel Walsh — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 02:20:48 -0000

This is one of the best things about the Iphone - I even paid for the app before it was released.. very very cool. I dont see why you would ever buy the standard remote now - wish I knew before I bought a few of them!.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

should be asleep — Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:10:40 -0000

If you read Fred's post you would note that he uses Sonos for his personal library, Rhapsody, Last.fm and internet radio.

Apple TV doesn't allow you to play the 5 million song Rhapsody or Napster streaming services.

Apple TV doesn't allow you to play the 15000 radio stations on Sonos.

Apple TV does not allow you to play last.fm. (or Sirius or Pandora or Napster)

Apple remote and apple tv can't play different songs in each room. Fred said he has 4 ZonePlayers. He and his kids can each play radio stations, rhapsody or last.fm they want in each room. With Apple TV they could only play their library and then only in one room or the same song in all rooms.

Likewise, Apple Remote can't play the same radion station in more than one room.

The list goes on and on. You can't control the volume of individual rooms when they are synched on Apple TV.

Apple TV is a nice 1 room system. Sonos is the player in the multi-room business and their new iPhone Controller is one of the best apps in the store. It makes the Apple remote look like a toy. check out the reviews. See their video. Educate yourself. With Sonos and Rhapsody and Last.fm, you will find yourself listening to more music from more places than you have in your life. It will bring you great joy.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Craig Bromberg — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:03:37 -0000

No need to get defensive: just pointing out that while we may share similar
passions, we don't all have similar resources--and noting that this is one
of the many differences between journalism and blogging: the former is
committed to resolving readership needs, the latter to proclaiming
individual passions. I carry no brief for Apple but ATV is a good product
gradually getting to great and can't be beat at the offered price point. To
wit (speaking of research): Mac Mini: From $599. (Apple); Apple TV
(40gb): $179.00 (Amazon).

No need for a "double" hack either: http://code.google.com/p/at....
Note that this hack not only gives you Boxee, but XBMC--both of which work
straight outta the box with FrontRow.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

fredwilson — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:36:43 -0000

I wrote the post about sonos over two years ago

At the time it was the best product out there

I did my research

When was the last time I promoted it to my readers?

And apple tv is not a great product unless you hack it

It's closed like all other apple products

A waste of money compared to a mac mini which is totally open

You can download bit torrent files on a mac mini

But not on an apple tv, unless you do a double boxee hack

I appreciate the comment but you should do your research too

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Craig Bromberg — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:31:42 -0000

Ah the investment! Well, since you're justifying the Sonos experience on
the basis of your sunk costs, allow me to remind you (my journalism-based
morals are showing here) that your readers will often take your advice--I
almost did, so passionate were you about Sonos/Rhapsody at that time--to the
tune of hundreds of dollars.
This is interesting for two reasons. First is that in the past you raked ATV
over the coals because it was a closed Apple product, but over time it's
become clear that for a Mac, this is is an uncharacteristically "open"
product to modding. ATV keeps growing in value relative to other audio
controllers whereas the rest keep getting more expensive. Also wonder if
perhaps this illustrates how little sense bloggers (I'm afraid I'm
generalizing here) don't quite see that product cheerleading w/o careful
competitive research can lead to some bad buys. Upshot: caveat lecteur! And:
get thee an Apple TV for video AND audio: The ATV interface is pretty much
all the control you need to play just the tunes you want when you want
em--and you can play any file, using almost any codec now on ATV.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

fredwilson — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:11:20 -0000

I get your point

But when you've already invested in sonos, the tradeoff works a bit differently

I run boxee on a mac mini and that's a pretty unbeatable experience too

Boxee is great for video but not yet quite as good as sonos for audio

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Craig Bromberg — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 14:03:30 -0000

Fred, it's interesting to me that you're gradually creeping up to precisely the system that many Apple TV users have had--at a fraction of the cost of Sonos. In fact, we've been around this bend in previous discussion on your blog, but ATV is tremendously underrated in this regard because it gives you the power of Sonos for $150 per TV, and both the Touch and iPhone work directly with it thanks to the Remote app. Plus, thanks to all the ATV patch fiends out there, Boxee now works on ATV--an almost painless hack at this point. Interestingly, for a while, I coveted your Sonos/Rhapsody system, but a hacked ATV far exceeds that firepower (and provides 5.1 sound, HD quality video, and even a web connection to my TV.) As I said, at $150/room that cannot be beat.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

fredwilson — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:57:11 -0000

I don't have a tivo

We use sonos for four things

1) music library
2) rhapsody
3) last.fm
4) internet radio

It's the perfect interface for all of them in one place

I know that many of the commenters feel that mac mini plus itouch remote gets the job done and maybe it does, but sonos still is delivering the goods to me

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

RockerRick — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:19:27 -0000

Do you have your Sonos hooked up with Rhapsody or Napster? Have you ever checked out the Rhapsody app for Tivo? I've been hooked on the rhapsody model and the tivo interface (through the tv) is really cool and great for entertaining. If only apple would ever allow a rhapsody app... I'm assuming android will get it.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Niklas Morberg — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:31:22 -0000

But the cost of flash is (as already shown before in this thread) negligible. The iTouch is already here. It's called iPod Touch. It will get cheaper. But not dumber.

And I'm sorry you spent your money on the Sonos system now that a setup with Airtunes and Apple's Remote app does the job just as good (if not better).

I'm not sure if your original post is intended as flame bait, but it comes across as ignorant and late to the party. Sure, the Sonos app is somewhat fresh, but the Remote app has been out for quite a while. If you want to add value you should write a review comparing the two solutions.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Brent Brookler — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:40:31 -0000

Little late to the conversation, but I understand and agree with the point you are trying to convey.

I was browsing the AppStore the other day and saw a golf app called, 'GreenFinder' for $34.99. It is one of the more expensive apps I have seen, so I read the description and comments. It uses the GPS in the iPhone to tell you distances to the green. The comments talked about users who had stand alone devices that cost $300 and this app was as good or better. By leveraging the device and adding specific utilities through software, more and more innovative applications will be made on the iPhone and iTouch.

I think the iTouch will get down to $150, it will just take a couple years.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Austin Bryan — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:54:14 -0000

I don't like the idea of paying $1000 for a Sonos when I can accomplish the same result for a fraction of the cost, if not free (okay, not really free, but I already owned all of the necessary components, as many of the readers here likely do). I've got my Macbook Pro streaming music wirelessly through my surround system using an old Airport Extreme that I piggy backed to my Time Capsule. And I can control every aspect of playback wirelessly through Remote on my iPhone. http://lifehacker.com/40023...

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

perpetuity — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:08:34 -0000

I yearn for some kind of extension of the "iTouch" platform but am not certain what form factor would be best. Hopefully something compelling will be created from within the hive.

Have you seen the Remote app Apple provides? It's dandy. I have a Mac Mini connected between my stereo rig and television, plus speakers via airtunes in other parts of the house. You can use Remote to handle all the stuff you would normally do on screen with iTunes. It's pretty nice.

Incidentally:
Why do you not like the "audio codec" ??
What's wrong with MP3? It's the most prevalent codec out there and that is all you need for iPod support. Yes, AAC is also supported and works handily. But you can buy a CD and rip it to MP3, or, buy from Amazon (I do unless iTunes has DRM free songs) and it just works. I don't get why anyone would have a beef with an audio codec.

The headphone hack? What's that? You might be referring to the original iPhone only which has a recessed jack. Those days are over, the iPod Touch never had it and the iPhone 2.0 does not.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Robin — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:30:32 -0000

Point solutions work well with web apps because the browser integrates them into one 'virtual device', and because of the low-friction distribution, the solutions can be made very deep in an incremental fashion.

The decision to pay money for a point solution web app is usually made long after it has demonstrated its value. Additionally each of the point solutions has a separate brand associated with it allowing them to succeed or fail without diluting one another.

The only part of the ipod touch hardware that is arguably redundant for a true universal remote is the flash, and as people have pointed out elsewhere, that doesn't contribute significantly to the cost. I would guess that creating a separate specialized model would cost more at this point.

On top of that, they would have to market it, and differentiate it from the existing models, which would increase the complexity of the buying decision.

Over time, the Touch will reduce in price to this point anyway, and that time period is probably only 12-18 months. Meanwhile, the rest of the touch platform (phone and ipod) will be receiving incremental improvements. Is there really an independent path for such a product or would it have to be decommissioned or folded back into the line after less than 2 years?

I see the iPhone/iPod touch as Apple's solution to the convergence problem. The idea is one device per person that you replace every 2-3 years as technology advances. The ipod touch is to address the market for people who don't want or can't have a phone subscription. Other than that, these devices are not a 'phone' or an 'ipod' they are part of a platform solution that consists of tightly coupled software/hardware capabilities.

Carefully controlling the capabilities of the platform, and limiting the number of combinations, is key to how Apple's pace exceeds Microsoft and others. This is true on the desktop and is likely to be equally true in mobile. They want to keep it simple for themselves, and it's equally important that they do so for 3rd party app developers.

You can argue that removing the flash wouldn't affect 3rd parties, but removing any other capability certainly would and could stop the special device from being a target for games etc.

I agree that the platform is a great solution for remotes, and the fact that Apple released their own remote app suggests to me that they do too, but I just don't see a window for a specialized device to add value to them.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Andy Freeman — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:34:55 -0000

Yes, I know that the proposed iTouch allows downloadable aps.

My point is that the universal home controller/home automation has a long history. Lots of money has gone into making devices controllable. Lots of devices are controllable. Universal remotes (for some definition of "universal") are available.

The answer to "Why is the outcome going to be different this time?" needs more meat than "it's a different interface" or even "it's a programmable interface".

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Andy Freeman — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 12:27:03 -0000

> How many people are going to go out and buy a $229 universal remote?

> But a lot of people would do that if it were $99

How many people bought universal remotes for $30? (Yesterday's price at Walgreen's.)

Yes, you're talking about more features and more money, but surely experience with the existing products is relevant.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

suresh — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:34:47 -0000

the whole point of the iPod Touch is that you can decide to use it as you see wish..

if you don't want to synch music or photos you don't have to...

if you don't want to synch podcasts you don't have to..

but at the minimum its a computing platform which allows you to install applications (e.g. Sonos player duh!) -- do you would expect it to have 8Gb of storage for people that want to download games, etc..

pointless discussion -- the iTouch is already there.. its called the iPod.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

Steve Murch — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:16:32 -0000

LOL. Definitely wasn't hard for me to imagine, because it does a lot more than a traditional not-connected-to-the-Web application. It's really software plus services in the cloud. It includes connection to a 160,000+ recipe archive and pretty rich social network about food that now gets a decent amount of traffic.

Definitely NOT trying to spam, just trying to add the perspective of someone who has written both an Internet site, a iPhone app and a traditional Windows app in the last 4 years and seen the comparative results on that effort.

My point is that the iPhone app process has had an extremely high ROI in terms of exposure, and this, too, makes me feel that the iTouch device family will expand. The developers are there, they have a strong econoomic incentive now to create iPhone/iPod/iTouch-compatible apps, and the process is very easy. Sorry if my post seemed like spam, but I am only trying to make my point a little more concrete with some real data.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

fredwilson — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:58:55 -0000

yeah, but the success of point solutions in web apps suggests that services that do one thing well are better than services that try to do everything

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

BillSeitz — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:48:04 -0000

The popularity Windows on Netbooks, and bloatware in applications, argues against that market generatlization.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

kenberger — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:39:46 -0000

yep, a notable detail. that's why pc folk might enjoy this for now as a warmup while they wait.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

fredwilson — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:32:03 -0000

i am sure you know this Ken, but boxee is the commercial extenstion of the xbmc project. they are working together.

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

fredwilson — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 08:11:22 -0000

Poorly written post. That's what I was trying to say. But they have to get the price point to $99 I think and that means taking out features to reduce cost

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

fredwilson — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:50:35 -0000

There's a difference between the memory needed to store apps and the memory needed for mp3s and jpgs

Re: Why The iTouch Is Inevitable

wmfischer — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:15:24 -0000

Why stop at remotes? With their latest SDK, hasn't apple built the ultimate CE UI? Car radios, clock radios, microwaves, DVRs, HVAC, cordless phones, dvd players, home alarms, etc. A car or house could have a single CPU with multiple wireless small format touch screens (ultra thin clients). Developers could compete to build the best device GUIs.